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2022 - Wall Component Modeling


Tom Klaber

Question

I was excited to try out the the wall component enhancements.  I could get neither the new wrapping functions to work - and when I tried to push pull components as shown in the video - the wall converted to a generic solid - same behavior as today.


Does this only work with special walls?

 

Is there a tutorial? 

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19 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:


Right.  The video is showing how you can now in group a wall to get at its 3D geometry.  

Does this De-wall the wall?  Does it change it to a series of generic solids?  I saw those great furring channels in the wall assembly.  Was that just modeled or was that a component in the wall.  If the latter -how do we do that? 

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1 hour ago, Tom Klaber said:
20 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

Right.  The video is showing how you can now in group a wall to get at its 3D geometry.  

Does this De-wall the wall?  Does it change it to a series of generic solids?  I saw those great furring channels in the wall assembly.  Was that just modeled or was that a component in the wall.  If the latter -how do we do that? 

 

Oops!  I meant to say "The video is showing how you can now ungroup a wall to get at its 3D geometry.

Yes.  Ungrouping the wall means you're simply left with generic solids (no longer a wall).

The furring in the video was simply modeled and not part of the wall.

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7 hours ago, Tom Klaber said:

 

I think this might belong in the grand BIM debate rather than the 2022 - but personally I believe that type of detail should not be modeled.  That is a great 2D detail and any tool that contains enough settings to achieve that will be too cumbersome to use.  I am now (after I understand the tool a little better) excited that assemblies and there for renderings will be more accurate - but also still diagrammatic.  Let details be details. 

There are certain aspects of those details that I'd agree shouldn't be expected to be created by an automatic wall-wrapping function - but there are others that I would say should be. It'll always be somewhat diagrammatic but the closer the diagram is to reality, the clearer the drawings and the less potential for them to be misunderstood.

 

Vectorworks doors not showing door stops is a good example of a level of detail that really needs to be there at least at a diagrammatic level, but isn't.

Edited by line-weight
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On 9/15/2021 at 1:39 PM, Tom Klaber said:

Is there a tutorial? 

I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to wrap wall components into a window opening.  I've worked my way through this thread, as well as:

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/overview/view.php?id=2637

https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2022/eng/VW2022_Guide/Windows/Inserting_windows.htm

After a few hours of trying to figure this out, I'm getting nowhere. I'm starting with a blank document and a wall style (not Story bound) and windows from the VW provided library. Nothing custom.

 

Can anyone point to (or create @Matt Panzer?) a step by step tutorial?  I'm attaching a VW file and screen shot of what I get vs what I want to achieve (drawn by decomposing everything to lines & polygons).  Thanks in advance.

1865243072_ComponentWrappingQuestion.thumb.png.0438eed99a3f0f91b51eddafededabc3.png

 

Component Wrapping Question.vwx

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@Matt Panzer Thanks so much for the comprehensive response and quick turnaround.  With your video tutorial in hand, I should be able to make this work.  I didn't even think of popping in to 3D to see if the wall had any height.  I made a bad assumption about using a blank sheet and VW default resources would allow this to work out of the box.  I should have checked.  I'm still not sure I would have figured out what you explained in the video on my own.  The help system is not very clear about any of this.  Your video would be a good addition to VW University.

 

A quick followup.  There's a checkable column to the right of "Wrap to Insert" (see attached image).  Does it do anything?  Also, is it OK to leave both the "Wrap" and "Wrap to Insert" columns checked and what happens if you do/don't?

 

Now I can go in to my custom wall and window resources, make the appropriate adjustments and "By Style" settings, and continue my 2021 to 2022 updates. Thanks again.

 

310050162_WallClosureatInserts.thumb.jpg.210092b7d8884adb6188b80120a1fc24.jpg

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, E|FA said:

@Matt Panzer Thanks so much for the comprehensive response and quick turnaround.  With your video tutorial in hand, I should be able to make this work.  I didn't even think of popping in to 3D to see if the wall had any height.  I made a bad assumption about using a blank sheet and VW default resources would allow this to work out of the box.  I should have checked.  I'm still not sure I would have figured out what you explained in the video on my own.  The help system is not very clear about any of this.  Your video would be a good addition to VW University.


You’re welcome for the help!  I’ll see if there are any plans to add more help for this in the VW Univ.

 

10 hours ago, E|FA said:

A quick followup.  There's a checkable column to the right of "Wrap to Insert" (see attached image).  Does it do anything?


Yes.  That is the “Use Custom Thickness” column.  It’s not labeled because it’s make the dialog far too wide.  However, you should see the “Custom Thickness” value to the right enable for editing when you place a check in that column.  When selected, the wrapping component will use the custom thickness value.

 

10 hours ago, E|FA said:

Also, is it OK to leave both the "Wrap" and "Wrap to Insert" columns checked and what happens if you do/don't?


When you uncheck “Wrap” all the cells to the right will be disabled.  So that is the “master” switch.  “Wrap To” only adds another level of control to wrap until it hits the insert.

 

10 hours ago, E|FA said:

Now I can go in to my custom wall and window resources, make the appropriate adjustments and "By Style" settings, and continue my 2021 to 2022 updates. Thanks again.

 

👍

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About that dialogue box. It confused me for a while, because I didn't understand why everything was greyed out. Eventually I realised that if you tick the "wrap" box, then that component is no longer greyed out. This is another example of inconsistent UI design, because normally in VW if something is greyed out it means you can't change it - usually because it's over-ridden somewhere else, for example in a style setting.

 

So when a user meets something that is greyed out, the message is "you can't change any of this here". That's the message I received, and why I went off looking for where I could enable those settings. I didn't try ticking the "wrap" box because there was nothing to tell me this was available to be changed. After all, if I try clicking on most of the columns nothing happens, confirming my understanding that all of these settings are closed to me. I realise that ticking in that column then un-greys the settings that are now changeable, but there needs to be something to make clear to the user that they can tick or un-tick certain columns.

 

This could at least be improved by having an X in those columns where they are unticked (a bit like in the class/layer visibility dialogues) because if that X was not greyed out, that would be a clue to the user that it's something that can be changed. A blank space doesn't tell anyone anything.

 

With all the talk of VW improving its UI, this kind of bad design just shouldn't be allowed out in what is a new feature. I'm pretty sure I won't be the only person who has been confused by this.

 

Also, it's not really on to leave one column un-labelled. If the problem is that it would make the dialogue too wide ... this is called a design problem, which means it needs to be solved by changing the design of the dialogue, not giving up and just ignoring the issue.

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I was really pleased to see the wall component wrapping in this years release, unfortunately it still has some major implementation issues.

 

  • The entire wrapping does not work with windows if you have a cill - funny enough, cills are a pretty basic element as the cill completely obscures the wall component wrap in plan view
  • Again with cills, he wrapping does not extend down to include for a cill and leaves odd gaps at the jamb.  Not sure if the same situation appears with door thresholds (haven't tried it yet).

As an office, we have just started last week to use 2022 in anger, so it will be a while before we are at that level of detail for most projects.  Had a look at the changes to stairs - it's a start, but VW is still miles off what the rest of the industry is able to do.

 

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21 minutes ago, Kevin C said:

I was really pleased to see the wall component wrapping in this years release, unfortunately it still has some major implementation issues.

 

  • The entire wrapping does not work with windows if you have a cill - funny enough, cills are a pretty basic element as the cill completely obscures the wall component wrap in plan view
  • Again with cills, he wrapping does not extend down to include for a cill and leaves odd gaps at the jamb.  Not sure if the same situation appears with door thresholds (haven't tried it yet).

As an office, we have just started last week to use 2022 in anger, so it will be a while before we are at that level of detail for most projects.  Had a look at the changes to stairs - it's a start, but VW is still miles off what the rest of the industry is able to do.

 

We are aware of these issues and are looking to address them as these new wall features mature.

However, If you can post these issues in the Wishlist Forum (with possibly a simple example file or image), it would help us to make sure we understand and address the issue correctly.

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@Matt Panzer Based on the info in your video, I've been able to begin updating my typical walls & windows to use the new wall closures.  In general, it's working pretty well, and I'm compiling a list of UI wishlist items.  I've run in to a few problems, and don't know if they are bugs or user error or a combination of the two.  Here are some annotated screen shots, and I am attaching a VWX file in case it helps:

 

1095803239_EFADefaultWall-WindowTopPlan.thumb.jpg.81b973ac29add16897b02c037392b6ff.jpg

 

1482151098_EFADefaultWall-WindowAxon.thumb.jpg.fa1e21c20cd587f2da0b1f15ed5e456c.jpg

 

FYI, the wall style is set up to allow for the siding & trim to be modeled separately, the black surface is the WRB, and the outermost component represents an air gap for the furring.  I built the window style to resemble this product: https://glowindows.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/A5-Double-Pane-Detail-Set-Windows.pdf

 

None of this is urgent, and I can continue to prepare to switch to 2022, and incorporate any suggestions you have later.  Thanks.

 

 

EFA Default Wall-Window 2022.vwx

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Those look like mainly issues with the window tool rather than the new wall features.

 

There have been no changes to the standard window tool in VW2022 so I'd not expect it to be anything other than as terrible as it always has been. I think I recognise some of those corner window problems.

 

Have you tried using the Windoor tool instead?

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I’ve decided not to use WinDoor because it seems like long term product development will continue on the native tools, not WinDoor. If there’s a bug in the Window tool’s corner windows, I’ll find a workaround as it’s not a common item in my projects.  It would just be good to know if that is the case and for someone at VW to log it as a bug. 

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On 10/17/2021 at 4:42 AM, E|FA said:

I’ve decided not to use WinDoor because it seems like long term product development will continue on the native tools, not WinDoor.

 

I haven't seen this stated or implied anywhere, but having used OzCad's plugins for so long, I'm curious what the plan is? 

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Thanks @E|FA

 

I assume NV was well aware of this prior to the acquisition @Matt Panzer?

 

The Vectorworks blog gave this move a positive spin, and making WinDoor more widely available also implied a future . . ,   

 

On 8/20/2021 at 1:45 PM, JuanP said:

We just acquired OzCAD and we are evaluating all their tools to see which can serve the needs in other countries so that we can integrate them for the other English-speaking markets. I'll keep you all posted.

 

On 8/28/2021 at 2:27 AM, JuanP said:

"Windoor will become available to Design Series product users outside of these geographies (Australia & New Zealand) through our Partner Network for version 2022”

 

 but from your 'Vectorscript' comment, it sounds as though WinDoor is effectively counting down to being made a legacy plugin?

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/77920-can-we-have-a-statement-on-the-windowdoor-tools/

Edited by M5d
Reposted in the Roadmap Thread
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12 minutes ago, M5d said:

Thanks @E|FA

 

I assume NV was well aware of this prior to the acquisition @Matt Panzer?

 

The Vectorworks blog gave this move a positive spin, and making WinDoor more widely available also implied a future . . ,   

 

 

 

 but from your 'Vectorscript' comment, it sounds as though WinDoor is effectively counting down to being made a legacy plugin?

 

You might want to move your questions over to the other thread, as it would be more relevant to that discussion:  

 

 

 

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On 10/15/2021 at 9:27 PM, E|FA said:

@Matt Panzer Based on the info in your video, I've been able to begin updating my typical walls & windows to use the new wall closures.  In general, it's working pretty well, and I'm compiling a list of UI wishlist items.  I've run in to a few problems, and don't know if they are bugs or user error or a combination of the two.  Here are some annotated screen shots, and I am attaching a VWX file in case it helps:

 

FYI, the wall style is set up to allow for the siding & trim to be modeled separately, the black surface is the WRB, and the outermost component represents an air gap for the furring.  I built the window style to resemble this product: https://glowindows.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/A5-Double-Pane-Detail-Set-Windows.pdf

 

None of this is urgent, and I can continue to prepare to switch to 2022, and incorporate any suggestions you have later.  Thanks.

 

 

EFA Default Wall-Window 2022.vwx 6.29 MB · 0 downloads

 

@E|FA, Thank you for pointing these out and including a file.

See comments below:

 

Issues 1-5.png

 

Issues 6-7.png

 

 

These are Wall Closure Issues:

1.     GWB not wrapping at corner window:
- This is a known issue.

2.     WRB (dashed line w/ gray pattern) fills 1/4” offset between GWB and window.
- Need clarification on this.  Can you show us what you want it to look like?

 

These are Window object Issues - I'll enter a bug report for these:

3.     Glass should inset into jamb and post by 1/2".

4.     Line thickness incorrect at and of glass.

5.     Wall line (from Draw Wall Lines setting) should be drawn below window graphics.

6.     In 3D, there’s a piece of white geometry protruding out of the window frame.

7.     Corner post looks correct in Top/Plan but the 3D geometry is not at the corner.

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2 hours ago, E|FA said:

Yes.  Setting the wrap offset manually is an easy workaround.  

 

You might still want to consider the interaction of the two wraps in my original file to be a bug.

 

While I definitely see why you'd want this, it is working as designed.  So this would have to be an enhancement request - not a bug.

The wrapping settings are designed as a general system of settings that can meet many different needs.  But there are certain limitations as well.  Showing a gap between the GWB and the window jamb is arguably a higher level of detail than typically shown in floor plan and would be clarified in a separate detail drawing.  Now, I'm not saying that to get us off the hook!  We do want this system to solve as many cases as possible.

 

Could you post this as a wish in the Wish List forum?  This will help it from being overlooked.

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22 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

Showing a gap between the GWB and the window jamb is arguably a higher level of detail than typically shown in floor plan and would be clarified in a separate detail drawing. 

 

I'm definitely zooming in too far on a floor plan!  If this is working as designed, it is not an issue for me.  Thanks again.

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