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Problem with Speaker Array and Hoists


Leppi

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Hi guys,

i spend some to time to test and improve some workflows in our company.

When I tried the Speaker Array Tool with the Hoists Tool, i got some problems.

If I connect one hoist to a bumper, Braceworks is not able to calculate. It tells me, that the hoist is not connected.

If I change to two hoists, i can connect 2 hoists and Braceworks is able to calculate.

Another problem is, that Vectorworks adds a weight for the whole Array of 50kg. I don't know why, because there is a load for the 4 Speakers and a load for the Bumper.

The 50kg are in the Group Truss.

grafik.thumb.png.b8edb025ab1d5aa75b38e1ff4c614d42.png

 

Any ideas?

 

Best regards,

 

Leppi

 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hi Leppi

 

I've had a look at your file

On 9/15/2021 at 12:18 PM, Leppi said:

If I connect one hoist to a bumper, Braceworks is not able to calculate. It tells me, that the hoist is not connected.

this seems to be because of the hanging angle of the bumper, if the bumper has a hanging angle Braceworks assumes that it needs a second motor.

 

On 9/15/2021 at 12:18 PM, Leppi said:

Another problem is, that Vectorworks adds a weight for the whole Array of 50kg. I don't know why, because there is a load for the 4 Speakers and a load for the Bumper

This looks like a bug, from what I can tell it only appears when multiple hoists are used. I'll get the bug report in.
If you don't want this included in the Load overview you can use the load filter to turn if off. I haven't found a way to turn it off for the create report command though.

 

Gruße

Jesse

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  • 4 months later...

Same issue for me. Two hoists works as expected. Even with a hanging angle of 0° on the bumper It is not working properly. I see this behavior if I open up a new file, not just an existing one.

 

This is the first hurdle I need to cross. Once I get the array to connect properly to a single hoist, I then have to figure out how to get it to happen through a referenced viewport. Any tips on that process would also be appreciated.

 

Harry

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Sorry its taken a while to respond to this one,

The issue discussed above is being worked on currently, I'm not sure when the fix will be ready though.

 

On 2/17/2022 at 12:01 AM, stayathomedad said:

Once I get the array to connect properly to a single hoist, I then have to figure out how to get it to happen through a referenced viewport. Any tips on that process would also be appreciated.

I'm not 100% sure if I am understanding what you are asking here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm reading this as you are trying to perform a Braceworks calculation on a sheet layer viewport. Braceworks calculations have to be performed in a design layer and can then be displayed in a sheet layer viewport afterwords. If you perform the calculation on a dedicated layer you can use this combined with the Braceworks Preferences results display tab settings to control the results visibility for your sheet layer viewports.
If you are meaning you want to perform Braceworks calculations on objects that have been referenced in from an external file (perhaps as a referenced layer) then this won't work as the referenced object are not actually in the current file, which means their data is not fully accessible to Braceworks. The only solution here is to fully import the layer or file and do the calculations, or if its not being referenced from a VWX you will need to recreate the portions of the design you want to calculate using Spotlight symbols and objects.

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Interesting. I have been calculating referenced objects with Braceworks as I figure out my workflow to use Braceworks in combination with Project Sharing. This has allowed me to access loading data from other user's objects without having to check them out and take ownership. In the Braceworks preferences there is a checkbox to allow calculations from objects that are referenced in.

2023347918_ScreenShot2022-03-03at8_55_30AM.png.3d019bafc4b7cc696976ac4275194a52.png

This has been working perfectly fine with all objects so far. I have been able to "attach" lights, drape, screens, projectors and even custom built scenic objects with loads to my truss. The weights of all of these objects get picked up as part of the truss system based on being close to the same heights. I am trying to get my head wrapped around this a bit better so I can understand exactly when and why the referenced objects becomes associated with the truss but what I know now is that if they are close they get associated.

 

This process breaks down with arrays. If I have two hoists and I get them close to the hanging position of the arrays they do not register the array load. But if I hang a stick of truss between two points and get that truss close to the hanging position of the array, the truss will include the array as part of the system. This can be seen when the system trim height is changed and you can see the red highlights around the referenced object.

 

The obvious workaround is to simply not include the arrays in the load calcs and then add in point loads, but if someone has gone to all the work to have it function by attaching referenced loads to trusses that it wouldn't be to much to get it to work with objects that attach directly to the hoists.

 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Thanks for explaining this in more detail, I didn't actually realize this option existed,

 

25 minutes ago, stayathomedad said:

If I have two hoists and I get them close to the hanging position of the arrays they do not register the array load. But if I hang a stick of truss between two points and get that truss close to the hanging position of the array, the truss will include the array as part of the system. This can be seen when the system trim height is changed and you can see the red highlights around the referenced object.

Can you attach a single hoist?

It may be that the array has the Hanging Support drop-down set to single hoist in its properties, which would explain why the array connect to the truss.

If this is not the case can you send me an example file to have a look at?
 

 

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This process is a bit inconsistent for me, and I don't quite understand the issue. To get the referenced arrays to be calculated I had to delete and re-create the viewport a couple of times. It seems if I do the exact same process sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. When I saved these two files it was working for me. I'm relatively new to working with BW so maybe I'm missing something.

 

The Audio.BWSample file contains (8) indentical arrays. The top four are rigged with objects in the Audio.BWSample file and I ran Braceworks in that same file. The bottom four arrays are on a different design layer. This file also contains a design layer viewport into the second file so that I could see the BW results from both files at the same time.

 

The second file Referencing.Audio.BWSample is pulling in the four arrays in the first drawing and then doing the BW calcs on that referenced data.

 

So as this screenshot shows there is a bit of a difference in how arrays are working in the drawing and through referencing and there may be a couple of different issues playing out in this process.

image.thumb.png.2270f4e150f5c289f314a933679cb99f.png

I'd love to know more.

Audio.BWSample.vwx Referencing.Audio.BWSample.vwx

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

I can't answer all of this, so I'll comment on the bits I can and reach out to the dev team about the bits I can't,

 

The top right example is behaving as I would expect, except for the fact that the bumper is overlapping with the truss geometry since it has a hanging angle. This doesn't seem to affect being able to make the Braceworks calculation and when a re-hung the truss with the same hanging angle as the bumper it also calculates correctly.


In the top left example the reason it didn't calculate is that there are 2 errors,

  1. the truss line is not correctly draw, the 2 truss sections are vertically offset from each other. This is why there is a truss cross displaying at the join of the 2 truss section.
  2. the Arrays hanging support parameter is set to 'two hoists', which will prevent it from connecting to the truss as it assumes the truss is a single connection point. This is probably a feature enhancement as I have seen plenty of arrays hung with multiple points (clamps, slings, Steelflex, etc..) from trusses when I was still working as a tech.

Once these issues are addressed it will calculate (I used calculate selection).

 

In the case of the referenced examples (in both the main and the reference file) Auto-connect is not registering the connection between the rigging objects and the arrays, there is no connection highlight when trying to connect inside either file.

I tried playing around with both files a bit, the only other thing I noticed was that the trusses are not at the same trim height as the arrays (if you look in at them in 3D they are on the floor. Moving them to the correct trim height however made no difference I still couldn't get it to calculate correctly
I've opened a bug report for this but this is beyond my personal experience, so I'll need to wait till I've had a chance to discuss this with the dev team.

 

 

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Thanks for your reply.

 

Here is another detail to add to the question for the dev team.

 

When I go to the file that has the rigging objects that is referencing in the arrays I can change the trim height of the truss on the second from the left array to 28ft. This is the same height as the array. Then when I use the change trim height command I can now see red highlights for the array. But, when I run a calculation on the system. It doesn't register the load of the array objects.

image.png.b82f7a6619a9418f405dc0a7d0782734.png

 

I can then delete the referenced file (the whole file, not just the viewport). Then if I re-establish the reference to those arrays, it can then register the array objects load into the calculations. I have had to repeat this process a couple of times to get it to work.

 

What would be super helpful to me would be for there to be more documentation about the parameters for referencing loads into Braceworks. It is an absolute necessity for my Project Sharing workflow and I wish there was something I could refer to to help me understand the process better.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/4/2022 at 7:36 AM, stayathomedad said:

But, when I run a calculation on the system. It doesn't register the load of the array objects.

Does it register the bumper?

 

Try to re-populate the array (or update) in the OIP after changing the trim height of the system.

 

I believe the array boxes will stay at their previous elevation until you update the entire array. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/4/2022 at 5:40 AM, jcogdell said:

I've opened a bug report for this but this is beyond my personal experience, so I'll need to wait till I've had a chance to discuss this with the dev team.

@jcogdell Have you had a chance to learn anything more about Braceworks and referenced files?

 

My client has switched over to 2022 and I have learned that it behaves a little differently.

 

The first screenshot shows the truss system 1 foot above the screen. The rigging system is in the active file and the screen is in the referenced file.

1831420239_1.thumb.png.acb3df1052e9da49cc95e090c9f3fa65.png

 

The second screenshot is after I lower the truss system 1foot to touch the screen. I then change the trim height of the system by raising it 2 feet.

727589833_2.thumb.png.18946e7a2dc41f4576a790dc8f93a19e.png

 

As you can see in the 3rd screenshot. The screen now changes height along with the truss system. Also the screen moved but the projection cone didn't (If you look really closely you can see the faint white lines of the projection cone).

197438097_3.thumb.png.08d509863967bd6269288b329e824df3.png

 

The big difference with 2022 is that even though the referenced objects anchor to the truss and change height with it, the weight of that object isn't picked up in the load calcs. Even though the screen is set to be a part of the calculations. In VW 2021, the weight of the object was detected and included in the calcs.

 

Please keep me posted. I think making the referenced file/Braceworks link more reliable and definable will help those of us who use Braceworks in the Project sharing environment by eliminating our need to connect an object to the truss in order to include it. This in turn allows us to move the truss without having to check out other users' objects.

 

.

Edited by stayathomedad
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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Sorry but I don't have progress or news to report about this at the moment, I'll pass the extra info onto the developers and see if i can find anything out

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