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Is Vectorworks able to do professional grading?


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Hi! I started up my own landscape architecture firm a month ago and after being frustrated with AutoCAD and Revit for years I decided to make the shift to Vectorworks as it seemed very suited to the work I do. I've watched hundreds of videos at the Vectorworks university and got the core certification and try to learn as much as I can from all the sources I can find. Still I'm struggling to understand how to work effectively with grading and haven't seen any tutorials on how to do it properly. Grading is in the absolute core of the work I do. Outdoor surfaces are almost never flat as shown even in advanced tutorials in the university and this is where I struggle to find a proper workflow. If I can't figure out a good workflow here I'm afraid that I will have to revert back to AutoCAD, which I absolutely dread.

 

Attached is a simple project created in AutoCAD that I try to replicate in 3D in Vectorworks. There are a couple of different types of surfaces, rather extensive plantings, some retaining walls, different kinds of curbs and a bunch of outdoor furniture. All normal stuff in the projects I do. How would you go along with recreating this? Some thoughts:

 

  • I would prefer to use hardscape for all areas as I would like to define the slab components for all surfaces.
  • What is the best tool for grading the hardscapes?
  • I can't seem to find a proper tool for curbs.
  • I would need the retaining walls to be L-shaped.
  • What would be the proper way to show the point elevations in a drawing as shown below?

 

Any help here would be greatly appreciated! I feel really stuck here and worry about having invested in the wrong software.

 

image.thumb.png.df8280a4d0e4177f39c547e291f9c883.png

Edited by Anders Blomberg
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In regards to being “invested in the wrong software”, what did you use for 3D modeling/grading in the past?  It certainly was not AutoCAD LOL.

 

Vectorworks will do all the tasks you are asking, you just have to use a few tricks for the curvilinear walls & curbs.  The rest can be done with conventional tools such as hardscape, walls, etc.  Personally, I found grading to be the most challenging skill to learn in Vectorworks.  It gets easier with experience.

 

I frequently use extrudes and other 3D modeling tools for walls and curbs, turned into auto hybrids so they look nice on plans.  I especially make use of Extrude Along  Path (EAP) for pools and such.  On complex sites, I prefer to grade my sites and set the hardscapes on it rather than using the hardscapes to grade.  It’s not that Vectorworks won’t do it, it’s just a preventative against potential conflicts on peculiar sites and working faster.  Hardscapes can be site modifiers and slope on multiple directions…, they can also be used as Texture Beds, which is useful earlier in the design process or depicting existing features.  If the hardscape surface will be extremely sculptural, 3D modeling tools are again the solution.

 

I’m away from my computer, but you can find some of my examples here on the forum.  You are right about the lack of training for most of these advanced workflows and curvilinear features.  I imagine most of us have learned this thru experimentation and online collaboration.  There is one class on vectorworks university about site modeling that is very good in regards to making sense of the site modifiers and dealing with pads, pads with retaining edges, and retaining walls.  I can’t remember the name of it, but if you filter for advanced Landmark, I imagine you’ll find it.

 

For wall footings, use a separate wall to define the footing or EAP.

 

For spot elevations, try the Stake tool or a custom Data Tag (search forum, lots of examples).

  • Like 3
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Thanks for some advice in a rather stressful situation @jeff prince"

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

In regards to being “invested in the wrong software”, what did you use for 3D modeling/grading in the past?  It certainly was not AutoCAD LOL.

 

Working for one of largest architecture firms in the world I used/tried a variety of software as they were all available. Revit certainly would be my preferred choice if Autodesk had even the slightest ambition towards catering for landscape architects, but it seems they don't. The projects I did in Revit required a lot of alternate solutions. So the standard way of working was AutoCAD with a plugin (Novapoint) for grading. It gave me a 2D design with 3D points for elevations. AutoCAD Civil 3D seems mighty powerful for terrain modelling but I never got around to use it very much. All of these solutions really frustrated me so hence the move to VW.

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

Vectorworks will do all the tasks you are asking, you just have to use a few tricks for the curvilinear walls & curbs.

 

Any advice on those tricks?

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

On complex sites, I prefer to grade my sites and set the hardscapes on it rather than using the hardscapes to grade.

 

Using the grade tool? How do I "set the hardscape on it"?

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

3D modeling tools are again the solution.

 

Guess I'll try to put some energy into those tools.

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

I’m away from my computer, but you can find some of my examples here on the forum.  You are right about the lack of training for most of these advanced workflows and curvilinear features.  I imagine most of us have learned this thru experimentation and online collaboration.  There is one class on vectorworks university about site modeling that is very good in regards to making sense of the site modifiers and dealing with pads, pads with retaining edges, and retaining walls.  I can’t remember the name of it, but if you filter for advanced Landmark, I imagine you’ll find it.

 

I've really tried to find all the info I can. Went through all of the classes mentioned, and more. Would love some links to threads in the forum, I've searched plenty without proper results. I feel like some training on this subject would be absolutely essential.

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

For spot elevations, try the Stake tool or a custom Data Tag (search forum, lots of examples).

 

👍🏻

  • Like 1
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@Tom W. Thanks for the advice. I've watched them all multiple times. The issue is that they're not showing complex grading like the example I attached in the begging. For example the video on the right, "site modifiers", shows multiple terraces that all are flat. That's not proper grading to me, seems more like a concept to begin with. I would love some examples of more detailed grading.

 

Coming from a civil background I also note that no examples show sloping cuts, as is always needed for geotechnical reasons.

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Sorry to keep this thread going but I'm still having a really hard time finding a good workflow for grading.

 

@Benson Shaw I really find the surface modifiers for the hardscapes being the tools best suited to do these gradings as I can define slopes, which is my preferred way of working. Unfortunately I run into problems when using multiple aligned hardscapes next to each other. They're rather unpredictable when aligning. Do you have any ideas about why this is happening or how to avoid the problem?

 

2074069945_Skrmavbild2021-09-15kl_12_08_05.thumb.png.e41904d16fa0b026d816990d05f38235.png

 

 

On 9/5/2021 at 5:32 PM, jeff prince said:

For spot elevations, try the Stake tool or a custom Data Tag (search forum, lots of examples).

 

@jeff prince Seems to me like the stake tool won't report back spot elevations from hardscapes (unless they're modifiers from within the hardscape) and I'm not finding any ways to get the Data tags to do that either. Would be much appreciated if you could point me in the right direction here?

Edited by Anders Blomberg
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6 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

Seems to me like the stake tool won't report back spot elevations from hardscapes (unless they're modifiers from within the hardscape) and I'm not finding any ways to get the Data tags to do that either. Would be much appreciated if you could point me in the right direction here?

If you place the Stake in 'Top' view rather than 'Top/Plan' it will report back spot elevations

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2 hours ago, hollister design Studio said:

Make sure you have 'Interpolate surface' (under 'draw 3D') UN-checked. 

It's checked by default and result in geometry that looks like your screen grab...

@hollister design Studio, thanks. I checked now and it's unchecked for every area. Maybe it could have something to do with the way one of the inner areas are graded? The thin line is made as separate area though and it's located between the graded and the problematic one. It didn't have any problems attaching to the big graded area either.

 

image.thumb.png.40a486a48628a9cf1abd2b9471f0ae74.png

 

1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

If you place the Stake in 'Top' view rather than 'Top/Plan' it will report back spot elevations

What Mode of the stake object are you using then? I'm not getting results with any of them.

 

image.png.fde1676b1ab77ab970ff6f8ac5daba54.png

 

 

I feel very much like I'm in need of some serious one to one education with a skilled VW landscape architect here. The questions just stack on top of each other. But I really appreciate you all taking time with this!

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@Anders Blomberg  I think there are several things to look at.

 

1. The aligned slabs "see" 3d objects (other slabs, extrudes) as alignment targets, but the" vision" is limited to layers assigned for alignment.  OIP for each aligned slab has a flyout to assign the relevant layers.  Verify that the layer(s) are appropriate for the alignment you intend and that any 3d objects on those layers are appropriate for the slab:

image.png.dca65e13309023c4a1537a2935838e45.png

 

2. Aligned slabs with curved edges seem to have some kind of imaginary alignment extents or boundary box. Rather unpredictable, but might have a straight line between two most distant points as one edge of the extent?   Portions of the slab outside that extent seek the z=0 or other intermediate elevation.  I think that's what you see in both circled areas. Apply a surface modifier grade network, or a few small networks in the problem areas. Use known points and grades to guide each node. Or interpolate to establish intermediate points.  Might not need very many.

 

3.  Add a few more 3d objects for alignment.  My original trace of your curvy walkway aligned nicely to known elevations with only 4 target objects: slab at each end, the oval, connector path. 

image.png.9eb786d231f264dd0dad0f83f1da074b.png

 

You will find something to work this.

-B

Edited by Benson Shaw
consistency
  • Like 2
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8 hours ago, Tom W. said:

@Anders Blomberg it works when I try it on a simple Hardscape:

 

 

 

 

You need to be in a 3D view.

 

Is this not what you mean?

 

@Tom W. Really happy to see that it can work! But I'm trying to do the same and not getting your results. What am I doing wrong here? Settings for the stake? For the hardscape? Program settings?

 

Edited by Anders Blomberg
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