Is Vectorworks able to do professional grading?

[Anders Blomberg]

Hi! I started up my own landscape architecture firm a month ago and after being frustrated with AutoCAD and Revit for years I decided to make the shift to Vectorworks as it seemed very suited to the work I do. I've watched hundreds of videos at the Vectorworks university and got the core certification and try to learn as much as I can from all the sources I can find. Still I'm struggling to understand how to work effectively with grading and haven't seen any tutorials on how to do it properly. Grading is in the absolute core of the work I do. Outdoor surfaces are almost never flat as shown even in advanced tutorials in the university and this is where I struggle to find a proper workflow. If I can't figure out a good workflow here I'm afraid that I will have to revert back to AutoCAD, which I absolutely dread.

 

Attached is a simple project created in AutoCAD that I try to replicate in 3D in Vectorworks. There are a couple of different types of surfaces, rather extensive plantings, some retaining walls, different kinds of curbs and a bunch of outdoor furniture. All normal stuff in the projects I do. How would you go along with recreating this? Some thoughts:

 

• I would prefer to use hardscape for all areas as I would like to define the slab components for all surfaces.
• What is the best tool for grading the hardscapes?
• I can't seem to find a proper tool for curbs.
• I would need the retaining walls to be L-shaped.
• What would be the proper way to show the point elevations in a drawing as shown below?

 

Any help here would be greatly appreciated! I feel really stuck here and worry about having invested in the wrong software.

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Anders Blomberg

[Jeff Prince]

In regards to being “invested in the wrong software”, what did you use for 3D modeling/grading in the past?  It certainly was not AutoCAD LOL.

 

Vectorworks will do all the tasks you are asking, you just have to use a few tricks for the curvilinear walls & curbs.  The rest can be done with conventional tools such as hardscape, walls, etc.  Personally, I found grading to be the most challenging skill to learn in Vectorworks.  It gets easier with experience.

 

I frequently use extrudes and other 3D modeling tools for walls and curbs, turned into auto hybrids so they look nice on plans.  I especially make use of Extrude Along  Path (EAP) for pools and such.  On complex sites, I prefer to grade my sites and set the hardscapes on it rather than using the hardscapes to grade.  It’s not that Vectorworks won’t do it, it’s just a preventative against potential conflicts on peculiar sites and working faster.  Hardscapes can be site modifiers and slope on multiple directions…, they can also be used as Texture Beds, which is useful earlier in the design process or depicting existing features.  If the hardscape surface will be extremely sculptural, 3D modeling tools are again the solution.

 

I’m away from my computer, but you can find some of my examples here on the forum.  You are right about the lack of training for most of these advanced workflows and curvilinear features.  I imagine most of us have learned this thru experimentation and online collaboration.  There is one class on vectorworks university about site modeling that is very good in regards to making sense of the site modifiers and dealing with pads, pads with retaining edges, and retaining walls.  I can’t remember the name of it, but if you filter for advanced Landmark, I imagine you’ll find it.

 

For wall footings, use a separate wall to define the footing or EAP.

 

For spot elevations, try the Stake tool or a custom Data Tag (search forum, lots of examples).

[Anders Blomberg]

Thanks for some advice in a rather stressful situation @jeff prince"

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

In regards to being “invested in the wrong software”, what did you use for 3D modeling/grading in the past?  It certainly was not AutoCAD LOL.

 

Working for one of largest architecture firms in the world I used/tried a variety of software as they were all available. Revit certainly would be my preferred choice if Autodesk had even the slightest ambition towards catering for landscape architects, but it seems they don't. The projects I did in Revit required a lot of alternate solutions. So the standard way of working was AutoCAD with a plugin (Novapoint) for grading. It gave me a 2D design with 3D points for elevations. AutoCAD Civil 3D seems mighty powerful for terrain modelling but I never got around to use it very much. All of these solutions really frustrated me so hence the move to VW.

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

Vectorworks will do all the tasks you are asking, you just have to use a few tricks for the curvilinear walls & curbs.

 

Any advice on those tricks?

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

On complex sites, I prefer to grade my sites and set the hardscapes on it rather than using the hardscapes to grade.

 

Using the grade tool? How do I "set the hardscape on it"?

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

3D modeling tools are again the solution.

 

Guess I'll try to put some energy into those tools.

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

I’m away from my computer, but you can find some of my examples here on the forum.  You are right about the lack of training for most of these advanced workflows and curvilinear features.  I imagine most of us have learned this thru experimentation and online collaboration.  There is one class on vectorworks university about site modeling that is very good in regards to making sense of the site modifiers and dealing with pads, pads with retaining edges, and retaining walls.  I can’t remember the name of it, but if you filter for advanced Landmark, I imagine you’ll find it.

 

I've really tried to find all the info I can. Went through all of the classes mentioned, and more. Would love some links to threads in the forum, I've searched plenty without proper results. I feel like some training on this subject would be absolutely essential.

 

38 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

For spot elevations, try the Stake tool or a custom Data Tag (search forum, lots of examples).

 

👍🏻

[Tom W.]

@Anders Blomberg did you watch these courses?

 

 

I thought they were very good + they touch on the issue @jeff prince mentions re not using the modifiers built into the hardscape tool + instead using the stand alone site modifier tool to grade the site as a separate prior operation then placing the hardscapes on the already-graded site.

[Anders Blomberg]

@Tom W. Thanks for the advice. I've watched them all multiple times. The issue is that they're not showing complex grading like the example I attached in the begging. For example the video on the right, "site modifiers", shows multiple terraces that all are flat. That's not proper grading to me, seems more like a concept to begin with. I would love some examples of more detailed grading.

 

Coming from a civil background I also note that no examples show sloping cuts, as is always needed for geotechnical reasons.

[Tom W.]

@Anders Blomberg did you see this thread? 

Some good ideas/techniques discussed here

[Anders Blomberg]

no, thanks! Will look into that!

[Tom W.]

Or this one

 

[Anders Blomberg]

yes, found that one. Also found the one comparing VW to Civil 3D rather unfavourably, which had me rather worried.

[Jeff Prince]

2 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

Any advice on those tricks?

 

I thought I described them... EAP for curvilinear features, using separate walls for footing, use of 3D modeling tools in general for complex forms, etc...

 

2 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

Using the grade tool? How do I "set the hardscape on it"?

You can grade the site using the grading tools or you can create your idealized version of the site to begin with by placing 3D points at key places in the design to develop the surface you will place your built elements on.  How you address this workflow really comes down to whether or not cut/fill and difference from existing grading is important in your final documentation.  Then, it is just a matter to setting the built elements onto the prepared site in 3D.  Sometimes, it's easier to get a 3D form of a hardscape by actually modeling it instead of using the hardscape tool, especially if you will have hardscape surfaces that have curvilinear faces or go from horizontal to almost vertical or wave shaped...the hardscape tool simply can not deal well with a situation such as:

 

 

Southeast Coastal Park - Barcelona

 

I advocate for the use of modeling instead of BIM tools when forms get challenging.  You have to remember, most of these BIM tools use fairly primitive 3D representations and have a hard time with curves (true with almost all of the softwares out there)  Further, I advocate for using multiple site models to get higher definition of enclosed planting areas.  Opinions on the validity of this approach varies and departs from "official" Vectorworks advice, but you can't really argue the results 🙂

How you approach a problem usually depends on the problem at hand.

 

2 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

Guess I'll try to put some energy into those tools.

It's really critical to what we do as landscape architects.  Most BIM tools are focused on the rectilinear or simple curved arrangements.  I'm sure this will improve with time, but understanding the 3D toolsets and putting them to use is not only beneficial in Vectorworks, but it is a skill that can be used in Rhino, Blender, etc. should those tools be need to create form more efficiently.  Once you've used a few nurbs & solids based modelers, they all tend to work in similar fashions.  It's like speaking different languages to cook the same dish 🙂  A really good course on Vectorworks University is "UNDERSTANDING THE APPLICATION OF 3D MODELING: PART 1".  There is a ton of example files and practical exercises which will get you tuned into how to navigate Vectorworks in 3D with nice tricks for orientating your work in 3D.  It's one of those fast paced live workshops where you will pause and replay a bunch to get it to sink in, but well worth the effort.  That, and the site modeling course I linked earlier are probably the single most valuable advanced concept courses I have taken to get me to the next level.  If you think about the concepts presented, you can leverage them to your own designs with great effect.

 

2 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

I've really tried to find all the info I can. Went through all of the classes mentioned, and more. Would love some links to threads in the forum, I've searched plenty without proper results. I feel like some training on this subject would be absolutely essential.

Getting up to speed on all of this can be done a few ways.  The least efficient in my opinion is the piecemeal approach to gaining the knowledge.  You will spend more time hunting and conversing about learning material than actually using it.  The forums are good for getting advice from others, but do not be turned off by differences in approaches, there are many paths to the finish line in any software... some paths more efficient than others.  Taking specific classes on Vectorworks University and then asking specific questions here on the forum is a pretty good method.  Don't worry, we are all continuously learning new skills and approaches, it never really ends, regardless of the chosen software.  Hiring a tutor is a good method for getting up to speed quickly.  I think the most efficient approach is a targeted collaboration where you partner with someone to execute portions of work on a project and have them teach you the specific techniques used.  The last approach at results in a specific and billable work product being completed, which is pretty important for most new firms 🙂

 

In summary, don't get stressed out.  Keep chipping away at it and you will reach the tipping point where you know enough to be productive... It just takes some time.  Based on what I have seen with my training clients and past employees, it takes roughly 6 months/4 hours a week for someone with previous 2D CAD and basic 3D CAD experience to become moderately productive at complicated projects in any of the 3D softwares.  Once you get comfortable with Vectorworks, I found that it replaces Sketchup and Civil 3D (well, as long as you are more focused on landscape grading and not infrastructure engineering ).  I'm also a landscape architect and transitioned off AutoDesk and Sketchup several years ago.  I was really frustrated at first, but once you get fluent in speaking Vectorworks, it's hard to imagine going back.

 

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

 

[Benson Shaw]

One rather obscure topic is grading curved slabs.  Explore the Hardscape>Slab>Aligned Slab. These align to other 3d objects, even twist to conform.  For curved edges that do not automatically align as desired or conform to design intent, use the Edit Surface Modifiers>Grade Tool to make a sort of exoskeleton of connected, short "facets" around the curves, then network with cross grades. Surrounding values and the hardscape surface update when a node elevation or slope is adjusted.

 

The green feature started as a 2d ellipse.  Convert to NURBS. Lower the z values (1 cm) of the two vertices to create the dip at the main pathway. Duplicate in Place. Move 3D the new one down (.3m). Loft Surface>No Rail the two NURBS curves.  Shell the resulting surface (.3m).  Move 3d (56.7m) so top is at correct elevation.  This could also be done with an aligned slab hardscape, but NURBS was easier for me.

 

HTH

-B

 

 

 

SverigeSlab .vwx

Edited September 6, 2021 by Benson Shaw
More! Always More! More! More!

[Anders Blomberg]

@jeff prince I really really appreciate you taking the time to express your view of these things in such a detailed way! I will look into the tools and classes you recommend. Being a one man business with no contacts to learn VW from this forum is where I'm hoping to pick up the skills/experience. It might be a crazy way to start out a business but in the long run I'm really hoping to be able to deliver much more than most LA's, at least here in Sweden where very few do 3D projects.

 

@Benson Shaw Absolutely lovely! This is the way I was hoping to be able to work. I have been trying out the aligned slabs but got weird results but I'll give the method another go! And thanks for the lovely named model as well 🙂 Guess the NURBS's tie together with Jeff's proposal about the modelling tools.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Anders Blomberg

[Anders Blomberg]

On a more graphical topic, but still related to the grading. Can Vectorworks generate these slope symbols, like the ones the arrows point at below?

 

 

C

 

[Anders Blomberg]

Sorry to keep this thread going but I'm still having a really hard time finding a good workflow for grading.

 

@Benson Shaw I really find the surface modifiers for the hardscapes being the tools best suited to do these gradings as I can define slopes, which is my preferred way of working. Unfortunately I run into problems when using multiple aligned hardscapes next to each other. They're rather unpredictable when aligning. Do you have any ideas about why this is happening or how to avoid the problem?

 

 

 

On 9/5/2021 at 5:32 PM, jeff prince said:

For spot elevations, try the Stake tool or a custom Data Tag (search forum, lots of examples).

 

@jeff prince Seems to me like the stake tool won't report back spot elevations from hardscapes (unless they're modifiers from within the hardscape) and I'm not finding any ways to get the Data tags to do that either. Would be much appreciated if you could point me in the right direction here?

Edited September 15, 2021 by Anders Blomberg

[hollister design Studio]

6 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

... any ideas about why this is happening or how to avoid the problem?...

Make sure you have 'Interpolate surface' (under 'draw 3D') UN-checked. 

It's checked by default and result in geometry that looks like your screen grab...

[Tom W.]

6 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

Seems to me like the stake tool won't report back spot elevations from hardscapes (unless they're modifiers from within the hardscape) and I'm not finding any ways to get the Data tags to do that either. Would be much appreciated if you could point me in the right direction here?

If you place the Stake in 'Top' view rather than 'Top/Plan' it will report back spot elevations

[Anders Blomberg]

2 hours ago, hollister design Studio said:

Make sure you have 'Interpolate surface' (under 'draw 3D') UN-checked. 

It's checked by default and result in geometry that looks like your screen grab...

@hollister design Studio, thanks. I checked now and it's unchecked for every area. Maybe it could have something to do with the way one of the inner areas are graded? The thin line is made as separate area though and it's located between the graded and the problematic one. It didn't have any problems attaching to the big graded area either.

 

 

1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

If you place the Stake in 'Top' view rather than 'Top/Plan' it will report back spot elevations

What Mode of the stake object are you using then? I'm not getting results with any of them.

 

 

 

I feel very much like I'm in need of some serious one to one education with a skilled VW landscape architect here. The questions just stack on top of each other. But I really appreciate you all taking time with this!

[Tom W.]

Doesn't the Stake return spot elevations in 'Use as 2D/3D graphic only' mode?

[Anders Blomberg]

@Tom W. Nope, I just get whatever elevation I've put in the "elevation" box.

[Tom W.]

@Anders Blomberg it works when I try it on a simple Hardscape:

 

 

 

You need to be in a 3D view.

 

Is this not what you mean?

[Benson Shaw]

@Anders Blomberg  I think there are several things to look at.

 

1. The aligned slabs "see" 3d objects (other slabs, extrudes) as alignment targets, but the" vision" is limited to layers assigned for alignment.  OIP for each aligned slab has a flyout to assign the relevant layers.  Verify that the layer(s) are appropriate for the alignment you intend and that any 3d objects on those layers are appropriate for the slab:

 

2. Aligned slabs with curved edges seem to have some kind of imaginary alignment extents or boundary box. Rather unpredictable, but might have a straight line between two most distant points as one edge of the extent?   Portions of the slab outside that extent seek the z=0 or other intermediate elevation.  I think that's what you see in both circled areas. Apply a surface modifier grade network, or a few small networks in the problem areas. Use known points and grades to guide each node. Or interpolate to establish intermediate points.  Might not need very many.

 

3.  Add a few more 3d objects for alignment.  My original trace of your curvy walkway aligned nicely to known elevations with only 4 target objects: slab at each end, the oval, connector path. 

 

You will find something to work this.

-B

Edited September 15, 2021 by Benson Shaw
consistency

[hollister design Studio]

5 hours ago, Anders Blomberg said:

...I feel very much like I'm in need of some serious one to one education with a skilled VW landscape architect here....

I think I've been here for about a year.

I'm still continually frustrated about how opaque VW can be.

 

It's so obviously coded be people who are not designers...

 

...but when I step back and look at the projects I've got on the boards, I have to admit, I've learned a lot more than I think I have.

Even though I'm still holding my head in my hands wondering 'what the hell' (pretty much every day!), I've actually successfully created a quite a few very complex projects.

 

There are really good folks on this forum that will go above and beyond to help.

 

 

Hang in there!

 

[Anders Blomberg]

8 hours ago, Tom W. said:

@Anders Blomberg it works when I try it on a simple Hardscape:

 

 

 

 

You need to be in a 3D view.

 

Is this not what you mean?

 

@Tom W. Really happy to see that it can work! But I'm trying to do the same and not getting your results. What am I doing wrong here? Settings for the stake? For the hardscape? Program settings?

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Anders Blomberg

[Tom W.]

Hmm all I can think is to try enabling your 'Snap to Intersection' setting - does that make any difference? 

 

Edit: just tried it + doesn't make any difference this end. Maybe post the file?

Edited September 16, 2021 by Tom W.

[Anders Blomberg]

Had a look at your snap settings and tried to replicate those as well. I attach both my larger model and the small elevation trial here.

Vega.vwx Point elevation trial.vwx