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Stories & levels - things that don't work as expected


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It's been covered previously that the dialogues and mode of operation for stories & levels are very confusing but here are two things I've found as I continue to struggle to use them:

 

1) Newly created "level types" disappear

- To make a new level, go to organisation palette, stories tab. Highlight relevant storey, click “edit”

- Brings up “edit storey” dialogue, click “new level”

- Brings up "new storey level" dialogue

- Invites choice of an existing “level type” via dropdown, can use an existing type, or choose “new level type” within dropdown

- Choose "new level type" and give it a name and elevation

- exit "new storey level" dialogue

- the new level appears in the list within the "edit storey" dialogue, but without a tick next to it

- if you now exit the "edit story" dialogue, without putting a tick against the level in that list, the newly created level type simply disappears.

- is this intended behaviour? Doesn't seem logical to me. Either, automatically tick it, or don't, but keep it available as a "level type" that I can go back and make active in whatever story.

 

2) Not possible to make an existing level type a "default story level"

- maybe I'm missing something but following the instructions here doesn't work:

https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2021/eng/index.htm#t=VW2021_Guide%2FStructure%2FDefault_story_levels.htm%23CSH_15

specifically, I don't see how to do the step that I have highlighted in blue here:

 

56437192_Screenshot2021-08-05at10_31_10.jpg.d6a758b0cdbc61e3bae96eb63e54453a.jpg

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

I understand your frustration and I agree that this functionality isn't intuitive.
I'll try to explain how this is designed to work. We are aware of the issues with this design and we will improve it in a future release.

 

On 8/5/2021 at 5:32 AM, line-weight said:

1) Newly created "level types" disappear

The behavior you are seeing is intentional. When you open the "Edit Story" dialog, the list of levels shows:

- Levels that present in the story (these have a checkmark)

- default levels (unchecked)

You can create a new level and add it to your story. Note that this new level is not a default level. Therefore, if you do not add it to the story, it goes away.

 

If you need a level that you can make active in whatever story (these levels are what we call default story levels), you should create by editing your Default Story Levels.

 

On 8/5/2021 at 5:32 AM, line-weight said:

2) Not possible to make an existing level type a "default story level"

A level type is not the same as a story level.

You can create a level type from the Level Types dialog. The level types can be used when creating Story Levels or Default Story Levels.

I think there is a confusion here that I would like clarify by describing what level types, story levels and default story levels are.

 

Level Type: A Level Type is just a text label that specifies the type of level (e.g. Ceiling, Finish Floor). It has no elevation, no additional properties.

Story Level: A story level defines an elevation in a story. It has a level type and an elevation.

Default Story Level: Preset story level stored in a list of readily available default presets so that they can be selected and activated in any story.

 

 

 Hope this helps.

 

 

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On 8/6/2021 at 9:48 PM, Hugues said:

We are aware of the issues with this design and we will improve it in a future release.

 

 

I very appreciate this.

I agree that the (Story)/Level system is very inflexible and cumbersome to use.

On the other hand, this was already intensively discussed directly after release

of Story "Levels".

VW 2015 (?), nearly 7 years from now.

 

But beside the Level UX issues, the biggest problem is still the lack of any option to

move Geometry in a controlled way between Layers with different Height Settings.

Like by pasting and keeping relative Z to Layer OR keeping World Z Height.

No matter if Story/Level Setup or old school manual Layer Heights.

 

I recently read that the german localization has such an extra command.

I haven't enough information if this will cover all needs though.

 

I would like an optional request in each situation where any Geometry changes

assignment to any Layer with different Height Settings.

Like assigning Geometry to another Layer, cut/copy paste Geometry, ....

Edited by zoomer
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On 8/6/2021 at 8:48 PM, Hugues said:

The behavior you are seeing is intentional. When you open the "Edit Story" dialog, the list of levels shows:

- Levels that present in the story (these have a checkmark)

- default levels (unchecked)

You can create a new level and add it to your story. Note that this new level is not a default level. Therefore, if you do not add it to the story, it goes away.

 

If you need a level that you can make active in whatever story (these levels are what we call default story levels), you should create by editing your Default Story Levels.

 

Ok - but if you give people the opportunity to make a new level (whether or not it's a new level type) from the 'edit story' dialogue, then doesn't this imply that they are wanting to use this new level in the story they are editing? Because I don't see any reason that you would create a new level that you didn't want to use.

 

Therefore, I would expect it to be added to the levels used in that story, meaning it should automatically appear with a tick against it, as a result of this action.

 

 

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On 8/6/2021 at 8:48 PM, Hugues said:

A level type is not the same as a story level.

You can create a level type from the Level Types dialog. The level types can be used when creating Story Levels or Default Story Levels.

I think there is a confusion here that I would like clarify by describing what level types, story levels and default story levels are.

 

Level Type: A Level Type is just a text label that specifies the type of level (e.g. Ceiling, Finish Floor). It has no elevation, no additional properties.

Story Level: A story level defines an elevation in a story. It has a level type and an elevation.

Default Story Level: Preset story level stored in a list of readily available default presets so that they can be selected and activated in any story.

 

 

 Hope this helps.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification - I think I understand it - although I still think the terminology is confusing.

 

It seems you are saying that "level types that are available by default when creating stories" is something different from "default story levels" because a level type has no elevation attached, but a default story level does.

 

However - my point remains that it appears to be impossible to follow the instructions given in the documentation. Once I have opened the "level types" dialogue as instructed, I do not see how to "specify the level types that are available by default when creating stories".

 

 

 

PS. I would find the following terminology less confusing, although there are probably better solutions:

 

"Level type" - as it currently is

"Level" - a level that has an elevation

"Level presets" - a level with a preset elevation

 

I think calling them "story levels" is unnecessary and adds confusion.

I think that calling a level type "layerless" is also confusing, in fact the whole way the dialogues try and create a layer along with a level and/or a story is massively confusing. I think this has been covered before though.

 

As with so many things in VW, we have certain concepts like "styles" that we ought to only have to get our head around once, and then be able to apply it to various different tools and objects... but for example with levels, the "styles" concept isn't used at all whereas I think it could be, for example potentially "default story levels" should really be "styles" (I dunno, shouldn't be my job to give myself a headache trying to work this out)

 

 

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