P Retondo Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 If I create a window from the "Window" insertion tool, then change the thickness of the wall (requiring that I reposition my wall cavity lines!), the portions of the wall between the casings (that the PIO creates) do not update. I.e., the cavity lines are incorrect. Also, if I convert a PIO window to a symbol and go through the same process, I cannot get even the wall thickness to update (in that portion of the wall between the casings). The PIO tools need to be rewritten so that this problem is taken care of - or better yet, so that there is no need in the first place to create that little chunk of wall between the jamb and extent of casings! Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 PR: Yes! I wonder if anyone is listening? PC Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 7, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 7, 2003 We're always listening. Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted April 8, 2003 Author Share Posted April 8, 2003 By the way, in the example cited above where the wall thickness does not update properly with a change in wall thickness, the window or door jamb DOES! Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 PR: This is one of my BIGGEST frustrations with VW's. And Robert: Thanks... PC Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 8, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 8, 2003 PC and PR: What I'm seeing here is that changing the width of a wall DOES reset the windows and doors it contains, but changing the cavities within that wall does NOT reset the windows and doors it contains. Do you agree with this assessment? Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Robert, Sorry it took so long to respond. I don't use wall cavities much at all, but I can confirm that the PIO's will adjust their jamb depth with a change of wall thickness. However (and this is big one) when a PIO has been made into a symbol, the only way to adjust it is to uncheck "use wall thickness" and set the thickness manually. I think (but because I'm no programmer I don't know) that all these PIO's ought to be re-written to take certain info from whatever wall they happen to be inserted into. And again, the space between the trim should not be part of the Plug-in, it should be part of the wall, just like in a real building. Thanks - I know you all work hard! Peter Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 9, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 9, 2003 PC, If I understand it correctly, there's a structural limitation to what you are requesting. Symbols, by definition, must be the same exact geometry for all instances of a particular symbol. So if you have door symbol A that is going into two different wall conditions (and therefore needs differing jamb geometry), this won't work. The easy way to deal with this is simply to convert the symbol into a PIO (assuming it was based on a PIO) by using the "Convert to Plug-in Object" command on the Organize menu. In early versions of VWA, there were file-size limitations owing to our use of CSG solids in the 3D representations of doors and windows that made the use of symbols-from-PIOs pretty necessary if you didn't want your file size to balloon. Since version 10.0, however, this is not such a big deal, since we don't use CSG solids inside of windows or doors anymore. Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 OK. I can live with that. But what about that area between the trim? It is problematic in a number of ways. The worst thing is when a line (that shouldn't exist) appears across the wall, between the trim ends. Sometimes this happens on one side of a window only and there seems to be no fix except to completely remove the trim. Peter Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 9, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 9, 2003 You've changed the topic on me! Explain what you mean by "that area between the trim". Are you talking about 2D or 3D? Cavity walls or no? Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Hi Again, OK, if you read the last line of PR's original post you'll see that he mentions this. Also in some previous posts (sorry I cant remember the dates!). But here is a description: Create a window or door in a wall which has a colored fill (ie gray) not a cavitiy. Put trim on interior and exterior. Now: 1) Change the fill color of the wall. You will notice that the area of the wall which resides between the trim is now "owned" by the plug-in. So if I have two different wall shades (for new & existing) I have to create two seperate plug-ins/symbols for the same window (or door) type. 2) Sometimes, especially when a PIO is made into a symbol, and especially when windows are arranged next to each other (ganged) very closely, I get an erroneous line which connects the outside trim edge on one side to the other (as if I had checked "full break with caps", even though I haven't). I can send you a file if you want... Peter Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 9, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 9, 2003 Thanks for the explanation -- sorry I missed the earlier reference in this thread. The area of the wall that you refer to is indeed part of the PIO. This is because it needs to draw this area in 2D, even more so when there are wall cavities to "return" to the face of the jamb. While it would be possible to draw a PIO that didn't draw this area, it would be difficult if not impossible to control the line weight of the results (i.e. the line weight of the wall inside the trim wouldn't appear correct) and it also wouldn't be possible to handle returns of wall veneers, which we now do. The answer to this issue is the same as we discussed previously, to use PIOs instead of symbols. I guess I should ask you, what is the advantage you perceive in using symbols in this situation? Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 9, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 9, 2003 "...(is this possible?) changing symbols back to PIO's after insertion..." Piece of cake. Select the symbol and choose the 'Convert to PIO' command on the Organize menu. Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted April 9, 2003 Author Share Posted April 9, 2003 Robert, A couple of comments: if you change the thickness of a wall containing a PIO converted to a symbol, the jamb depth is modified, but not the symbol's representation of the wall in the area between casings. So, it appears to me that a symbol can "know" when the wall thickness has changed and make some appropriate adjustments. The code could be re-written to fix the "bits of wall" as well. Although the reasons you advance for having window and door symbols create their own little piece of a wall may be valid, I feel they are far outweighed by the disadvantages. Besides what has been mentioned here with regard to cavities and that extraneous line crossing the wall at one side of the window, if your interior trim is a different width from exterior trim, there is a gap in the 3D wall when viewed from the narrow-trim side. I think all of these are unacceptable flaws, and we should work to fix them. In the old window/door tools, there was an "implode loci" option, which I never understood until someone on this board explained that it provided the functionality we are asking for - it made it so that the wall was cut at the frame, rather than at the outer extent of casings. I think we are arguing that this is the preferred way to go, based on the unresolved problems and complications we are seeing. Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 9, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 9, 2003 "Besides what has been mentioned here with regard to cavities and that extraneous line crossing the wall at one side of the window, if your interior trim is a different width from exterior trim, there is a gap in the 3D wall when viewed from the narrow-trim side." --This is in our bug list and is being worked on. "if you change the thickness of a wall containing a PIO converted to a symbol, the jamb depth is modified, but not the symbol's representation of the wall in the area between casings. So, it appears to me that a symbol can "know" when the wall thickness has changed and make some appropriate adjustments. The code could be re-written to fix the "bits of wall" as well." --actually, the objects are reset upon wall thickness change, but not on change of wall cavities (which is usually a separate operation). This is also in our bug list and is being worked on. HTH. Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted April 9, 2003 Author Share Posted April 9, 2003 Re: the advantages of symbols, it's the fastest way to insert multiples of a given window or door. If we had a way to use the eyedropper tool to apply all settings from one instance of a PIO to another, this advantage of using a symbol would be obviated. The other thing that's great about symbols is that you can add custom muntin patterns to the 3D object, and that will appear in every instance of the symbol. This greatly reduces the time for putting such detail into a 3D model. Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted April 9, 2003 Author Share Posted April 9, 2003 Much appreciate knowing that the bugs are being worked on. BTW, out of curiousity, is "HTH" a person's intials or does it stand for something? Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 9, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 9, 2003 ...or "Hope This Helps" Quote Link to comment
BG Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 P Retondo Try the "Clone PIO" plug in from Vectordepot to copy settings from one PIO to another similar PIO. BG Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Robert, Mainly, I guess, it is a holdover from previous versions wherein symbol usage was advocated for reducing file size. So I got used to being able to create a symbol from a PIO and use it over & over. It's a very fast way to do things. I think I will start using duplicates of PIO's instead...Or (is this possible?) changing symbols back to PIO's after insertion... Thanks! Peter Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted April 10, 2003 Author Share Posted April 10, 2003 I note that the author of "Clone PIO" is none other than Robert Anderson. Robert, VectorDepot says this is a VW 9.5 script, does it work with the VW 10 PIOs? Also, with respect to the updating of wall thickness, if you like I can send you a file with a door in a wall that will not update its "wall bits" thickness when the wall is made thicker. Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Robert Anderson Posted April 11, 2003 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 11, 2003 I may be the original author, but I don't maintain the stuff on VectorDepot. You may want to talk with the webmaster of VectorDepot, Patrick McConnell, who is a very responsive guy. If the object in your wall is (1) a PIO and not a symbol and (2) either the 'Door' or 'Window' PIOs (i.e. the VW 10 versions), then I'm very interested. Feel free to email me. Quote Link to comment
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