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Zeno

Adding a Beam into a Wall

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hello

 

I'm working on a new BIM model. 

 

I need to set everything precisely and need to put a beam into a wall to generate a correct material worksheet quantity report

 

My goal is to put the beam into the wall like a simbol but if I convert a structural element into a symbol it becomes like a parametric element and I can't put it into the wall

 

How can I solve this problem? 

 

 

Schermata 2021-03-17 alle 11.59.42 (2).jpg

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Do you have the Symbol Options set to Convert to PIO?  And to Insert in Wall?  I was able to insert a beam made into a symbol into a wall.

 

image.thumb.png.f4486fe5ca3234a7efef04935ae317a8.pngimage.thumb.png.a89852a4c9d4665b393d3bc2c26cfa6b.png

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22 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

Do you have the Symbol Options set to Convert to PIO?  And to Insert in Wall?  I was able to insert a beam made into a symbol into a wall.

 

image.thumb.png.f4486fe5ca3234a7efef04935ae317a8.pngimage.thumb.png.a89852a4c9d4665b393d3bc2c26cfa6b.png

 

yes, that was the problem. Another problem is that if you insert a symbol into a wall without Breaks, the component quantities are the same as the wall without the simbol so I need to add also a wall in feature.. and repeat this process for every beam. That's insane..

 

 

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Are your beams really a high enough percentage of your wall volume to really make a difference in the schedule? What is the typical tolerance and waste on a construction site? Maybe 10% on things like studs, drywall, insulation?  If your beams are only 1% of the wall volume isn't that already taken care of by the waste percentage?

 

I can see trying for 100% accuracy on things like doors, windows, fixtures that come as individual items, but there will always need to be allowances for damage and unexpected conditions on everything else.

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@Zeno Seems to me you don't really need to have a symbol IN the wall.  Just extrude a 3d beam, give it a class, and you are done. The tag it to the worksheet.

At least this make sense to me...I may be missing some details. 

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4 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

Are your beams really a high enough percentage of your wall volume to really make a difference in the schedule? What is the typical tolerance and waste on a construction site? Maybe 10% on things like studs, drywall, insulation?  If your beams are only 1% of the wall volume isn't that already taken care of by the waste percentage?

 

I can see trying for 100% accuracy on things like doors, windows, fixtures that come as individual items, but there will always need to be allowances for damage and unexpected conditions on everything else.

If you are using light construction method's is ok, but when you are using brick/concrete/mortar/stucco the correct quantities are very important, so is sad Vectorworks can't insert beams into walls and the wall be smart enough to surround the beam with the components, the same issue with the columns, if you insert a column into a wall the wall components are ignored and this is very important in the quantities of large buildings, all other BIM software's do this, except Vectorworks.

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What about using Story Levels and setting the interior components to be bound to a Story Level that is at the level of the bottom of the beam. You would probably need two wall styles, one for walls with beams and one for walls without, but it should calculate properly.

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In a single wall this beam makes 4 mq difference. 4 mq means 120 euros. This is a single wall for a single stories for a single tower. I think is something like 10x floor so 1200 per floor. The entire project is 12 floors per tower so 14.400 euros x means 43.200 euros.

 

So, yes, it's very important for me to have the right control for this paramethers, thank you.

 

41713969_Schermata2021-03-19alle08_46_59.thumb.jpg.76f8bd6e90483542b7ba267dee014c2b.jpg

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8 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

What about using Story Levels and setting the interior components to be bound to a Story Level that is at the level of the bottom of the beam. You would probably need two wall styles, one for walls with beams and one for walls without, but it should calculate properly.

 

It would be great if I have only 1 type beam. But this is not the case. I need to put into walls several beams with different dimensions. Symbol in a wall is a good workflow, but the problem is the quantities. I can't create a "hole" inside the wall.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Kevin K said:

@Zeno Seems to me you don't really need to have a symbol IN the wall.  Just extrude a 3d beam, give it a class, and you are done. The tag it to the worksheet.

At least this make sense to me...I may be missing some details. 

 

Sorry but for this work I need to calculate right the material quantities. And I don't understand why if I put a windows into a wall or a beam into a wall that are calculated differently

 

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14 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

Are your beams really a high enough percentage of your wall volume to really make a difference in the schedule? What is the typical tolerance and waste on a construction site? Maybe 10% on things like studs, drywall, insulation?  If your beams are only 1% of the wall volume isn't that already taken care of by the waste percentage?

 

I can see trying for 100% accuracy on things like doors, windows, fixtures that come as individual items, but there will always need to be allowances for damage and unexpected conditions on everything else.

 

It's almost 17%, do you think is enough to be considered for a right calculation?

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9 hours ago, DBrown said:

If you are using light construction method's is ok, but when you are using brick/concrete/mortar/stucco the correct quantities are very important, so is sad Vectorworks can't insert beams into walls and the wall be smart enough to surround the beam with the components, the same issue with the columns, if you insert a column into a wall the wall components are ignored and this is very important in the quantities of large buildings, all other BIM software's do this, except Vectorworks.

 

Yes, exactly, that's the point, thank you.

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RESOLVED WITH @lorenza

 

Is enough to add a 3d solid into the hole part of the simbol.. and it works correctly

 

1957326231_Schermata2021-03-19alle09_08_532.thumb.jpg.1cc6179429d9ef24991a39bdc9676108.jpg

Schermata 2021-03-19 alle 09.09.38.jpg

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I was going through these posts + was just about to suggest using the wall hole component to subtract the material from the wall! Glad you got it sorted

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2 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I was going through these posts + was just about to suggest using the wall hole component to subtract the material from the wall! Glad you got it sorted

 

@lorenza solved this! 👩‍⚕️

 

 

I am happy because I was going to create tons of niches in the walls and all of this looked like a nightmare

 

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@Zeno First, I am very glad this discussion has gotten you a workable solution.

 

Second, my apologies for not truly understanding your problem and making assumptions based on my inaccurate understanding.

 

My recommendation in the US has always been that while it is nice that you can do takeoffs based on the model, unless you are a "design/build" firm doing the construction yourself, to include quantities ads a high level of risk to the architect. Risk that did not exist 20 years ago because drawings were issued and the contractor had to do their own counts and material quantity calculations to generate their bid.

 

Now if you provide a complete material count and the contractor relies on it for their bid and it is wrong, the architect has some liability for either the change order is the count is low, or potential from the contractor if they ordered too much.

 

Buildings like your 10 story tower have been built for over 100 years. For most of that time they were built  without 3D models and detailed material counts. 

 

And at least here in the US, the structural engineers only want to work in 2D because they have tools that work well for doing their calculations. 

 

I guess I just don't understand the pressures pushing for perfection instead of enough information to get the thing built.

 

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

@Zeno First, I am very glad this discussion has gotten you a workable solution.

 

Second, my apologies for not truly understanding your problem and making assumptions based on my inaccurate understanding.

 

My recommendation in the US has always been that while it is nice that you can do takeoffs based on the model, unless you are a "design/build" firm doing the construction yourself, to include quantities ads a high level of risk to the architect. Risk that did not exist 20 years ago because drawings were issued and the contractor had to do their own counts and material quantity calculations to generate their bid.

 

Now if you provide a complete material count and the contractor relies on it for their bid and it is wrong, the architect has some liability for either the change order is the count is low, or potential from the contractor if they ordered too much.

 

Buildings like your 10 story tower have been built for over 100 years. For most of that time they were built  without 3D models and detailed material counts. 

 

And at least here in the US, the structural engineers only want to work in 2D because they have tools that work well for doing their calculations. 

 

I guess I just don't understand the pressures pushing for perfection instead of enough information to get the thing built.

 

Thanks a lot and don't worry, no problem. This is exactly the point. I have to convince a manufacturer to follow my work to rely on one of my models. I have to prove that I have everything under control. Hopefully, I will make a model that is so complex that I assure you it will be very interesting. But I always find several problems. For example: the last one is this. I can't hide the "behind" symbol on the wall. I can't figure out how to do it.

 

897107150_Schermata2021-03-19alle16_44_27.thumb.jpg.cd0cd16902e3e72ff7a04033631968ff.jpg

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Posted (edited)

And the "edit position component" doesn't works well.. maybe because it's a structural member..626184011_Schermata2021-03-19alle17_03_49.thumb.jpg.1843ac9a1534267f42f94b75cfe1fb86.jpg

Edited by Zeno

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