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Hidden Object Display settings in Section + Interior Elevation Viewports


Tom W.

Question

I’ve figured out how to use the main settings in the O.I.P. where you can set obscured objects to display by class (for example show something hidden behind a wall with a dashed line) but I can’t get the override settings when you edit section/elevation in-place to work.

 

I thought these ‘Cut Plane + Display’ settings would allow me to a select a specific obscured object not currently displayed + make it display. Or vice versa take an object that is currently displayed + make it so you don’t see it. So apply the settings to specific individual objects rather than it be done by class.

 

But when I’m in the section/elevation in-place edit mode + I select the object in question + go into the ‘Cut Plane + Display’ settings none of the changes I make there have any effect.

 

The cut plane settings work but the hidden object settings aren’t doing anything for me.

 

Am I doing something wrong? 

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Be great to hear from someone who uses these settings...

1108649365_Screenshot2021-02-19at05_57_22.thumb.png.682dd17596d567b81822c1fa87da544e.png

783981217_Screenshot2021-02-19at05_56_02.thumb.png.906a69ca38655007f09d2ae01eb41fbe.png

I can't get the Object/Hidden Object beyond/before parameters to have any effect whatsoever.

 

I can get the Cut Plane setting to do what it's meant to do it's just the others do nada.

 

Should be a good feature so annoying not to be able to get it to do anything.

 

How do I draw Matt Panzer's attention to this? Don't know how to mention a user unless they're in the thread already... 

 

Thanks!

 

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14 hours ago, Tom W. said:

How do I draw Matt Panzer's attention to this? Don't know how to mention a user unless they're in the thread already... 

 

Hi Tom,

 

To tag someone start start typing their screen name beginning with "@"

My name would be "@Matt Panzer".

 

To answer your question:  I was beginning to put something together to show you and discovered a bug in the per object overrides for Object Display and Hidden Object Display in section viewports.  The viewport setting work, but not the per object overrides.

I just submitted a bug report for this (VB-177006).

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Thanks @Matt Panzer for sharing this graphic...i am bit closer to understanding these settings but still some confusions.

 

I somehow still can't grasp  what effect has changing 'Hidden Line' to 'Dashed Hidden Line' or visa versa at the top of Object/Hidden Object Display menu under Class name field in section viewport settings.

I actually never use Dashed Hidden Line Render only Hidden Line for sections viewport rendering. Will those settings override viewports background render?

 

Another thing that confuse me is when lets say Hidden line is active for given class in Object/Hidden Object Display menu for viewport will settings in same dialogue for dashed hidden line pen attributes have no effect on result ?

 

I hope you can understand my points as it is quite difficult for me to navigate in somehow overlapping terminology.

 

Thanks.

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Hi @drelARCH I feel I understand how these settings should work but agree with you that the results are confusing.

 

For example I have this section viewport:

1328050482_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_36.thumb.png.1ee64aa8663458a4a85738e274debe30.png

I have placed an extrude on the outside of the room, before the cut plane. Half of the extrude is visible through an opening in the wall. The other half is obscured by the wall. So what you see through the opening should be governed by the 'Object Display...' settings + the part of the extrude that's behind the wall by the 'Hidden Object Display...' settings.

 

So if I have the Hidden Object display set to a blue line in Hidden Line:

816124461_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_51_43.thumb.png.0c79fe0d3e5e8bb3945526756530448b.png

 

and the Object Display set to a red line + a dashed red line in Dashed Hidden Line:

1253192510_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_29.thumb.png.3e1afca78ab5f10fdca0b781bf332370.png

 

I get this:

985569006_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_42.thumb.png.1051c3fcb64b893da13b9da875f0f603.png

Which is exactly what I'd expect.

 

But if I don't want to see the red part of the extrude through the doorway in Dashed Hidden Line + I change the Object Display settings to Hidden Line:

1506615427_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_09.thumb.png.0a5b404938cb87d9fbcf79e6b66d4267.png

 

I get this:

1315886031_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_47.thumb.png.d49b04f3a0ad0b5ca8fb4620711424bb.png

 

I lose the dashed line representing the back edge of the extrude which is what I'd expect to happen but I also lose part of the hidden object geometry, the vertical blue line representing the front edge of the extrude. Why has this happened? Why would the settings governing the Object Display impact on the hidden object display??? Is this another bug @Matt Panzer?

Edited by Tom W.
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3 hours ago, drelARCH said:

Thanks @Matt Panzer for sharing this graphic...i am bit closer to understanding these settings but still some confusions.

 

I somehow still can't grasp  what effect has changing 'Hidden Line' to 'Dashed Hidden Line' or visa versa at the top of Object/Hidden Object Display menu under Class name field in section viewport settings.

 

That setting is how you want to render each object in that class unto itself.  In most cases, you probably only want to see the object as rendered in Hidden Line so you see only visible edges facing the cut plane.  Dashed Hidden Line will show the back faces (hidden edges) of each object in that class.

 

3 hours ago, drelARCH said:

I actually never use Dashed Hidden Line Render only Hidden Line for sections viewport rendering. Will those settings override viewports background render?

 

When the "Display" setting is not set to "None" the setting will override the Background Render setting (if different). However, if the background Render is "Dashed Hidden Line" the dashed pen attributes of the render mode will be used.

 

3 hours ago, drelARCH said:

Another thing that confuse me is when lets say Hidden line is active for given class in Object/Hidden Object Display menu for viewport will settings in same dialogue for dashed hidden line pen attributes have no effect on result ?

 

The only difference the Background Render setting will make is that setting it to "Dashed Hidden Line" will cause the hidden edges of objects and hidden objects beyond the cut to use the dash line attributes defined in the render settings.  Typically, you would want to use a Render Background of "Hidden Line" because these Object/Hidden Object Display settings provide much more control.

 

3 hours ago, drelARCH said:

I hope you can understand my points as it is quite difficult for me to navigate in somehow overlapping terminology.

 

I agree about the terminology confusion.  It stems from the existing "Hidden Line" vs "Dashed Hidden Line" terms.  As you know, "Hidden Line" render means the back face edges are not shown and "Dashed Hidden Line" means they are shown.  The terminology is not explicit enough in stating to "show" or "not show" these edges.  It's not that hard to grasp when you have them as just two settings for a viewport render mode, but expanding it like we have has compounded the problem.

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1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

Hi @drelARCH I feel I understand how these settings should work but agree with you that the results are confusing.

 

For example I have this section viewport:

1328050482_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_36.thumb.png.1ee64aa8663458a4a85738e274debe30.png

I have placed an extrude on the outside of the room, before the cut plane. Half of the extrude is visible through an opening in the wall. The other half is obscured by the wall. So what you see through the opening should be governed by the 'Object Display...' settings + the part of the extrude that's behind the wall by the 'Hidden Object Display...' settings.

 

So if I have the Hidden Object display set to a blue line in Hidden Line:

816124461_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_51_43.thumb.png.0c79fe0d3e5e8bb3945526756530448b.png

 

and the Object Display set to a red line + a dashed red line in Dashed Hidden Line:

1253192510_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_29.thumb.png.3e1afca78ab5f10fdca0b781bf332370.png

 

I get this:

985569006_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_42.thumb.png.1051c3fcb64b893da13b9da875f0f603.png

Which is exactly what I'd expect.

 

But if I don't want to see the red part of the extrude through the doorway in Dashed Hidden Line + I change the Object Display settings to Hidden Line:

1506615427_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_09.thumb.png.0a5b404938cb87d9fbcf79e6b66d4267.png

 

I get this:

1315886031_Screenshot2021-03-08at11_52_47.thumb.png.d49b04f3a0ad0b5ca8fb4620711424bb.png

 

I lose the dashed line representing the back edge of the extrude which is what I'd expect to happen but I also lose part of the hidden object geometry, the vertical blue line representing the front edge of the extrude. Why has this happened? Why would the settings governing the Object Display impact on the hidden object display??? Is this another bug @Matt Panzer?

 

This issue is related to a known bug.  The vertical blue line (as you say) should show.

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23 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Ok thanks @Matt Panzer 

Just out of interest, is there a way for someone like me to check the status of bug reports? 

This for example was a bug filed on my behalf last August: 

Occasionally I remember about it + wonder whether anything's happened with it...

 

I don't believe there's a way for you to check the status aside from asking a VW employee.  I took a look and all I can tell you is that it's priority level is set to "Major".  However, I cannot tell you when you might see the issue addressed.

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16 minutes ago, BScott said:

Has there been any movement on this?  I'm on VW 2022 and still can't the per object override to work, two years after these posts.


Thanks!


Scott

 

Hi Scott,

These issues should all be fixed in Vectorworks 2023.

If you have a file you'd like to send me I'd be happy to test you particular case.

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@Matt Panzer

 

Issue no. 1

I have been trying using the "extents above cut plane" section of the Horizontal Section OIP to produce reflected ceiling plans using the actual drawn geometry, with some success.

 

However, I am now trying to use the same feature to add dashed lines, showing overhead elements, again generated from the actual model geometry, onto conventional plan drawings. Until now I've tended just to do this in annotation space manually. It's conventional to show overhead elements in dashed line on floorplans.

 

I can get this to happen, but have hit a problem, which is that the dashed line gets shown at a very small scale, so you can't actually tell it's a dashed line uness you zoom right in. I'm guessing it's getting drawn at 1:1 scale instead of the viewport scale. I've attached the very simple VW file which the screenshot below is from. I think you should be able to see what I mean from this.

 

Screenshot2023-09-22at16_09_56.jpg.a67d8a5e4151998e9cfe61e273805062.jpg

aboveCP.vwx

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Issue no 2

This is related to something I raised in another thread here, last month. It didn't get responded to there.

 

That is perhaps more a "wishlist" item than "troubleshooting" - however, I noticed just now looking at the diagram posted further up this page, here (the five tablet model) that it doesn't seem to match reality, at least in VW2023.

 

When you press the "object display" button under the "Extents above cut plane" section of the Horizontal Section OIP, it doesn't take you to a dialogue like the one shown in that diagram - it takes you to an "object display by class" dialogue and you have to choose one or more of those classes, and press "edit" before you eventually get to the "object display" dialogue like what is shown in the "5 tablet model" diagram.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, line-weight said:

@Matt Panzer

 

Issue no. 1

I have been trying using the "extents above cut plane" section of the Horizontal Section OIP to produce reflected ceiling plans using the actual drawn geometry, with some success.

 

However, I am now trying to use the same feature to add dashed lines, showing overhead elements, again generated from the actual model geometry, onto conventional plan drawings. Until now I've tended just to do this in annotation space manually. It's conventional to show overhead elements in dashed line on floorplans.

 

I can get this to happen, but have hit a problem, which is that the dashed line gets shown at a very small scale, so you can't actually tell it's a dashed line uness you zoom right in. I'm guessing it's getting drawn at 1:1 scale instead of the viewport scale. I've attached the very simple VW file which the screenshot below is from. I think you should be able to see what I mean from this.

 

Screenshot2023-09-22at16_09_56.jpg.a67d8a5e4151998e9cfe61e273805062.jpg

aboveCP.vwx 125.37 kB · 0 downloads

 

OK, have just discovered this....

 

Screenshot2023-09-22at17_23_48.jpg.bca9101348b53bad8c9a9ea6f454885a.jpg

 

Is that set to 0.01 by default ... or have I somehow got that set in my preferences for a forgotten reason from the distant past? It was set to that even in a new file.

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21 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

OK, have just discovered this....

 

Screenshot2023-09-22at17_23_48.jpg.bca9101348b53bad8c9a9ea6f454885a.jpg

 

Is that set to 0.01 by default ... or have I somehow got that set in my preferences for a forgotten reason from the distant past? It was set to that even in a new file.


Good to see you worked out this issue.  The default should be “1” for sure.

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22 hours ago, line-weight said:

Issue no 2

This is related to something I raised in another thread here, last month. It didn't get responded to there.

 

That is perhaps more a "wishlist" item than "troubleshooting" - however, I noticed just now looking at the diagram posted further up this page, here (the five tablet model) that it doesn't seem to match reality, at least in VW2023.

 

When you press the "object display" button under the "Extents above cut plane" section of the Horizontal Section OIP, it doesn't take you to a dialogue like the one shown in that diagram - it takes you to an "object display by class" dialogue and you have to choose one or more of those classes, and press "edit" before you eventually get to the "object display" dialogue like what is shown in the "5 tablet model" diagram.


Right.  That illustration was purely to show where (from which OIP button) the attributes are defined.  It was created for internal use and the intermediate dialogs were left out to simplify the illustration.

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On 9/23/2023 at 3:03 PM, Matt Panzer said:


Good to see you worked out this issue.  The default should be “1” for sure.

Ok. I do remember that I changed it some time in the past, but the reason is long forgotten.

 

However ... sorting this still left me with some objects above the cut plane not showing as expected. I've attached another version of the file.

 

The issue seems to be that if I have an extrude in class B, made by extruding a shape that's in class A, the resulting object fails to get shown in the desired line type even if I have asked for that linetype to apply to both of class A and class B. Is this what's supposed to happen?

 

Screenshot2023-09-25at09_49_22.jpg.31d64eb131ae11ab54e3953e355849a6.jpg

 

 

 

aboveCPv2.vwx

Edited by line-weight
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On 9/23/2023 at 3:09 PM, Matt Panzer said:


Right.  That illustration was purely to show where (from which OIP button) the attributes are defined.  It was created for internal use and the intermediate dialogs were left out to simplify the illustration.

 

Ok, I see.

I'd be interested to hear whether you agree that all of these linetypes ideally should be definable in the same way as "objects below" currently is? Of the ten different definable linetypes that one is an exception because you choose it under "advanced properties".

This is just one of several reasons that the process of setting all these linetypes is monumentally confusing.

 

How would I like it to be done? I think there should be one dialogue box, with a preview image, that lets you set all 10 linetypes in one place. And perhaps it is necessary for some workflows to have the ability to set it all per class of object being drawn, but it ought also to be possible to set each of them using a linetype that will apply regardless of the object class.

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9 hours ago, line-weight said:

Ok. I do remember that I changed it some time in the past, but the reason is long forgotten.

 

However ... sorting this still left me with some objects above the cut plane not showing as expected. I've attached another version of the file.

 

The issue seems to be that if I have an extrude in class B, made by extruding a shape that's in class A, the resulting object fails to get shown in the desired line type even if I have asked for that linetype to apply to both of class A and class B. Is this what's supposed to happen?

 

Screenshot2023-09-25at09_49_22.jpg.31d64eb131ae11ab54e3953e355849a6.jpg

 

 

 

aboveCPv2.vwx

 

The current behavior is consistent to how extrudes work in Vectorworks:  The attributes of the 3D geometry in an extrude take on the attributes of their 2D source object within.  Because of this class overrides also have no effect on the extrude's attributes.  While one might argue it should work differently, that is the current design.  So, I would say this is working as designed.

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9 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

Ok, I see.

I'd be interested to hear whether you agree that all of these linetypes ideally should be definable in the same way as "objects below" currently is? Of the ten different definable linetypes that one is an exception because you choose it under "advanced properties".

This is just one of several reasons that the process of setting all these linetypes is monumentally confusing.

 

How would I like it to be done? I think there should be one dialogue box, with a preview image, that lets you set all 10 linetypes in one place. And perhaps it is necessary for some workflows to have the ability to set it all per class of object being drawn, but it ought also to be possible to set each of them using a linetype that will apply regardless of the object class.

 

I do agree that all these categories of attributes should be defined in the same way (in the same place) and having a preview graphic in the dialog would also help a lot!  Attributes of objects is something we do want to rework (and simplify) and these sorts of changes would be considered in changes like that.  We do need to be very careful how we do this and it is a topic that comes up often internally.

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