Language consistency - Slab should be floor

[Matt Overton]

As per title Slab object should be renamed floor object to be consistent with Roof and Wall.

 

Oh and also upgraded to handle timber and framed structures.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Matt Overton

[Tom W.]

What would the existing floor object then be called? I'm assuming floors still exist in VW2021...?

 

1 hour ago, Matt Overton said:

Oh and also upgraded to handle timber and framed structures.

Can you explain?

 

[Christiaan]

I like consistency too but there is good logic to using a more generic term like Slab. For instance, slabs make great flat roofs and ceilings. My inner peace would come unstuck having to use a Floor object for ceilings or roofs 🤪

Edited December 22, 2020 by Christiaan

[Matt Overton]

20 hours ago, Christiaan said:

I like consistency too but there is good logic to using a more generic term like Slab. For instance, slabs make great flat roofs and ceilings. My inner peace would come unstuck having to use a Floor object for ceilings or roofs 🤪

 

Yet but there is a ceiling tool that does grid ceilings but not flat or raked ones for which we use the roof or slab tool for. I don't think any of them would handle an exposed grid ceiling. Again would rather they produce better tools that cover the full gamete of the object name.

 

Still to me the generic is Floor not a type of floor would still make it more consistent language wise even if we co-op them like we co-op so many other building fabric tools for parts of the model.

 

 

 

[Matt Overton]

On 12/22/2020 at 7:16 PM, Tom W. said:

What would the existing floor object then be called? I'm assuming floors still exist in VW2021...?

 

Can you explain?

 

I'd forgotten Floor even existed. 

Does anyone still use it and if so couldn't it just convert existing instances to simple styled instances of the new improved and well named Floor Object.

Why was it not upgraded other than VW annoying habit of reinventing the wheel and leaving 2 half features in the software?

 

Anyway sorry not so much an exclusive floor thing more a materials thing now I've had a look at the interface.

 

Many Components of Walls, Floors and Roofs are not monolithic like VW assumes/allows them to be.

They are made up of repeat a material (that is generally structural) then in filled with another material. Timber Joists, light weight steel and the like.

So hopefully Materials will get an update to handle the non-monolithic combinations of materials, some time beyond the current road map.

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

The existing Floor command is useful for quickly producing a 3D object that shows as solid in top/plan. And you can rotate the texture on a floor which you can't on a slab.

 

It would be great to be able to show different materials laterally through components such as insulation in between joists/studs etc.

[Eric Nickerson]

I still use the Floor command mainly because when modifying a Slab using add and/or clip surface (which I LOVE to do while designing) it breaks the reshape functionality of the slab.

 

Attached example shows a slab with normal reshape handles and one where I've used "add surface" to add a small chunk in the middle. The reshape handles in that one are messed up.

 

I would really love to switch to using the Slab tool exclusively, and I'm generally in favor of changing it's name. I just REALLY want it to play nice with add/clip surface.

 

 

[Tom W.]

After you've used Add/Clip Surface or Add/Subtract 3D Object From Slab commands on a slab, double-click or right-click on it + choose 'Edit Boundary' + you enter an edit mode for the original slab shape where you can use Reshape tool any way you like.

 

In a similar way you can choose to edit the Modifiers: the shapes you used when carrying out the add/substract surface or add/subtract 3D object.

 

But obviously you are editing the original slab shape + the added/subtracted shapes as separate individual entities rather than treating the new overall shape as a single editable entity which is perhaps what you are talking about.

 

I think Slabs are really flexible powerful tools. I wish you could do all things you can do with a slab with a wall or a roof.

 

My only complaint like I say is that you can't rotate the texture on a slab.

[Andy Broomell]

41 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

My only complaint like I say is that you can't rotate the texture on a slab.

 

Completely mystifying as to why any sort of texture mapping is disallowed.

[zoomer]

1 hour ago, Andy Broomell said:

Completely mystifying as to why any sort of texture mapping is disallowed.

 

 

When ever I tried that tool, because I really needed it,

I failed. I always misuse OIP>Rendering to force texture modes

in any way until "use global Z", at least aligns anything.

 

By playing and try and error I even managed it to work for my

separate Wall Components in a special case.

But I can't replicate or really now what I exactly did.

[Matt Overton]

So the only reasons to use the floor tool is that the Slab tool has issues that should but haven’t been attended to?

 

Have to say yes annoyed on a regular basis by both these things and slabs. 
I’ve avoid relying on textures for anything other than set~dressed images. 
 

walls and roofs could certainly use improvements here as well. Maybe materials 3.0 might get there.

 

Yes, more than once stumbled on a coworkers slab that has 10s of modifiers in it because they’ve used clip surface on the entire object. Then again the slab modification interface basically requires modifiers to be clipped out and reapplied with no way on knowing what each modifier applies to. Big room for improvement that should happen instead of keeping 2 overlapping tools. 
 

[Tom W.]

In my (admittedly limited) experience I'd always use the Slab tool for modelling floors + would use the Floor tool in place of an Extrude for something like a kitchen worktop where I can specify it's height + thickness on creation + don't need to convert it into an auto hybrid for it to display correctly in 2D. So with this being the case, + to go back to your original proposition, you could argue that it's the Floor tool that's inconsistently named rather than the Slab tool! 😆

[michaelk]

To make it even more confusing:  Slab objects are composed of Floor objects.

 

If you ungroup a slab with 5 components you will get 5 polylines and 5 floor objects.

 

The real question for me is why floor objects are defined from the bottom and slab objects are defined from the top.

[Jonathan Pickup]

3 hours ago, michaelk said:

The real question for me is why floor objects are defined from the bottom and slab objects are defined from the top.

I wouldn't mind so much if the Bottom Z was in the correct location on the dialog box. students find it very confusing that the Bottom Z is at the top of the floor in the dialog box 

I wish it was like this:

[michaelk]

Hi Jonathan!

 

I think exactly the same thing every time I use the floor tool!

 

The other one that does that for me is the Stair Tool - 2D Graphics - Top Graphic.  It always bugs me that the section for the upper floor graphics is on the bottom of the dialog box.

 

Hope you have a great New Year.

[Pat Stanford]

Have either of you actually put in an Enhancement Request for the change?  ;-)

 

These little issues are some of the things most likely to be able to get changed if VW knows that it is a problem.

[michaelk]

Hello Pat!

 

I have not.  Even though I think about it literally every working day 🤣

 

But, in my defense, if I was going to write an enhancement request for the stair tool, that would be waaaaaaaay down on the list!

 

Any a very happy New Year to you, too.

[Tom W.]

8 hours ago, michaelk said:

To make it even more confusing:  Slab objects are composed of Floor objects.

Yes I'd seen you say that elsewhere (well discovered!): it makes it even more of a mystery why you can't use texture mapping on slabs (when you can on floors). 

[E|FA]

15 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

Enhancement Request for the change?

 

Where & how do you make an "enhancement request" (and shouldn't VW have a formal mechanism of using the forum posts as such)?

 

I am aware of these links at the footer of all the forum pages, but only the Wishlist (which this post is in) seems appropriate: 

Tech Support Request: http://www.vectorworks.net/support/help

Wishlist: https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/forum/19-wishlist-feature-and-content-requests/

Bug Submit: http://www.vectorworks.net/support/bugsubmit

[Pat Stanford]

The Wishlist is the appropriate place for most people to put enhancement requests for items like this. Or for "big ticket" items as well.  The posts in the Wishlist are considered by VW when they consider what tasks to prioritize for the next version of VW.

 

I am a beta tester and there is a separate submit process for bugs and "enhancement requests" (which is why I phrases it that way instead of wish). I sometimes forget what things are called in different places. Especially when I am moving fast.  ;-)

[Andy Broomell]

I've actually been curious how actively the Wishlist Forum posts are considered/acknowledged by VW these days since JimW's departure... 

 

 

 

Edited January 4 by Andy Broomell

[Pat Stanford]

I am not on the inside, but I firmly believe that the wishlist is reviewed and considered in setting task priorities.

 

 

[Kevin McAllister]

My understanding is that the Floor Tool is considered deprecated (is that the correct word?) and is no longer being maintained or developed. I know a lot of users continue to use it but I believe the Slab Tool is considered its replacement. (All JimW era info so it could have changed.)

 

Maybe @Matt Panzer might know more?

 

Kevin

 

[Matt Overton]

7 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

My understanding is that the Floor Tool is considered deprecated (is that the correct word?) and is no longer being maintained or developed. I know a lot of users continue to use it but I believe the Slab Tool is considered its replacement. (All JimW era info so it could have changed.)

 

Maybe @Matt Panzer might know more?

 

Kevin

 

Deprecated tools should probably be removed from the default workspace at the very least.

[Matt Panzer]

11 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

My understanding is that the Floor Tool is considered deprecated (is that the correct word?) and is no longer being maintained or developed. I know a lot of users continue to use it but I believe the Slab Tool is considered its replacement. (All JimW era info so it could have changed.)

 

Maybe @Matt Panzer might know more?

 

Kevin

 

 

I don't have the official reason, but I believe the Floor object has remained because it's used as a convenient way to make a "hybrid extrude" (that displays fills in Top/Plan).  I do agree that the name of the object should be changed to something less specific if the object is not depreciated.

[E|FA]

8 hours ago, Matt Overton said:

Deprecated tools should probably be removed from the default workspace at the very least.

 

Or labeled as "legacy" similar to what they did for the old markers in 2021 (screenshot from VW 2021 workspace editor): 

 

 

I included a general request in items 10 & 11 in this post: