Best 2D/3D practices for hardscape objects

[hollister design Studio]

So I just found out that Generic Solids and Extrusions are ONLY wireframe in 2D plan view.

No hatches or fills or hidden line make them less useful for a 2D/3D work flow.

 

Doing some forum and tutorial searches and found that many people in the past used 'floor' objects for hardscape as they are somewhat editable using the reshape tool (if only in 2Dplan) and z height is fairly easy to set in the OIP.

Then I discovered that the floor tool is being phased out.

 

 

So I've started trying out varies methods of modeling hardscape elements.

 

1. Creating 2d/3d symbols:

• Have to draw everything twice.
• I can still edit - albeit in edit mode - and have to edit both 2d and 3d.

2. Using the wall tool: 

• For gabions and simple retaining wall objects this seem ok, but each section is independent and this makes design changes complicated.
• Changing wall width isn't easy.
• Moving walls in z is also complicated.

3. Using slabs:

• editable in 2D but not in 3D with the reshape tool.
• not directly "push/pull-able" making modeling complicated.
• I'm exploring "add and subtract 3d object from slab" - but the workflow is very awkward... 

 

 

How does everyone else model for 2d/3d usage?

 

 

Here is an example of what I'm trying to model.

• gate wall is a 2d/3d symbol
• address wall is a slab with "add 3d object" 
• site model recently "forgot" about my driveway site modifiers... not sure why.

 

[Tom W.]

47 minutes ago, hollister design Studio said:

So I just found out that Generic Solids and Extrusions are ONLY wireframe in 2D plan view.

No hatches or fills or hidden line make them less useful for a 2D/3D work flow.

Hi @hollister design Studio you don't mention Auto Hybrids: in their most basic form they perform like hybrid symbols in that they give solidity to 3D objects when viewed in Top/Plan.

It's a bit hard to tell from the screen shot but the stepped cuboid object with triangular bit on the side I would just turn into an auto hybrid then will be solid in 2D. Plus you'll have additional control over appearance in terms of the cut plane but that may not be needed in this case.

Applies also to the 'address wall' I think: could just be a 3D model then converted to hybrid object rather than using slab tool. If the primary objective is to achieve satisfactory 2D look.

But floor objects are v good too if you can create your object using it. Like a kitchen counter for example. Until you put a fillet on the edge then it loses it's 2D solidity + needs turning into an auto hybrid as well...!

[Jeff Prince]

@hollister design Studio 

Someone recently told me that one needs to learn how to speak Vectorworks to avoid frustration.  I laughed and figured Vectorworks needs to learn how to speak Landscape Architect if they hope to be relevant in the future 🙂

 

With few exceptions, anytime you are creating something interesting, it will have to be modeled and then turned into an Autohybrid as @Tom W. explained.  It seams that even some of the vectorworks tools are just automating solid modeling behind the scenes, ungroup a Door, Column, Fence/Railing, etc to see an example of this.  Whenever I am modeling in Vectorworks, I am usually missing Rhino.  Had I known my designs would look like faceted gemstones, I would have considered becoming a jeweler LOL.

 

Here's a plan view of a stepped wall with railing that was converted to an AutoHybrid.

 

Here's the same thing in perspective.  The 2D was generated by the AutoHybrid command, no additional drawing was required.

[Jeff Prince]

This one is a pretty conventional and boring landscape construction, nothing spicy.  Yet all the steps, coping, pool wall, columns, pergola, etc had to be modeled.  I did use hardscapes and walls for the flatwork and rectangular step risers.  Kinda hard to automatically quantify all that bull nose though 😞

 

[hollister design Studio]

I obviously need to look into this auto hybrid thing!

 

The whole 'no hatch or fill' on some objects - objects that are natural results of some of the tools in the modeling space - that threw me a bit this morning.

I'll just keep on keeping on learning.

[Tom W.]

One thing to say, and this may not be relevant to what you're doing, and I may well be wrong about it anyway as I'm very new to all this: if you have something like bull-nosed step edging like in Jeff's drawing + you convert it to an auto hybrid in order to get the correct 2D look, you find that you can no longer - for example - return info on the length or whatever of the object in a data tag or report. I had some extrude along paths in a drawing - pelmets in a kitchen - which when EAPs I could easily report on the overall length needing purchasing but once auto-hybrids I had to go into the original EAP, establish the length + put it on a record attached to the object. I don't THINK you can delve into the object's history with a report/data tag...??

 

Sorry Jeff is that what you meant when you said?

4 hours ago, jeff prince said:

Kinda hard to automatically quantify all that bull nose though

 

Plus auto-hybrids can be a little tricky to edit I think sometimes.

 

AND I've had some really weird behaviour where part of the object disappeared - and I mean on the same plane, nothing to do with before/after the cut plane.

[Jeff Prince]

@Tom W. Yes,  I end up keeping a copy of the 2D linework used to create these features just so I have something I can easily and quickly measure.

[hollister design Studio]

10 hours ago, Tom W. said:

... I've had some really weird behaviour where part of the object disappeared... 

 

Honestly I'm already having this pretty often with groups, symbols, and viewports.

 

Yesterday a trellis lost two of it's posts.

The two that disappeared where the originals that where mirrored to get the two that stayed visible.

Had to go back to a backup and copy back into the file.

 

Between that and the random immediate shutdown crashes, I'm getting really good at saving often and restoring from backup!

Everyone says "forget your old workflow, VW works differently from  other design programs"...

My new workflow is backup, backup, backup!

[hollister design Studio]

@Tom W.   and @jeff prince 

And thanks for the thoughts (and warnings) about autohybrids.

I've been turning some of my current symbols into autohybrids and VW is making some really nice 2D objects for me

 

 

One thing that I noticed - I had made up my original 'symbols' with a lot of 'groups' within 'groups' for easy editing.

Autohybrid dialog says no 'groups' inside it's envelope.

 

I've changed my interior 'groups' to 'symbols' with a naming convention of "PART_xxx" so I can easily sort out those symbols in my resource manager.

Does this follow standard practices for more complicated autohybrids?

[Jeff Prince]

@hollister design Studio no problem man.  I just learned the magic of Autohybrids this summer here on the forum myself.

 

I subscribe to the school of symbols and only use groups to club things together for moving or organizing related things temporarily.  I don't know why so many Vectorworks people use groups when a symbol suits the purpose better.  I have a client that uses groups to depict repeating feature in a design.  These groups can not be easily replaced with symbols due the the way they made them and it is time consuming to fix it all.  Had they been symbols with good insertion points, time and money saved.

 

If you start using symbols extensively, take the time to get to know they behave and best practices for creating them.  I like to build my complex symbols in a blank file with the insertion point at 0,0.  Using this practice has helped me generate clean symbols without strange issues cropping up.  It's not required, but I have seen a lot of strange Vectorworks behavior when making symbols in very large site model files, hence my safety procedures.