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How to control two roof faces intersection ?


Stéphane

Question

Hello, 

 

I have two roof faces - highlighted in orange. I want them to intersect on my red intersection line as shown below. In other words, I want my edges A and B to be tilted - not vertical. Is there a way to do this ? The goal is to have nice continuous components in Section VP.

 

I would appreciate your advices.  

 

 

 

545053254_Capturedcran2020-12-1110_47_52.thumb.png.5ee8f8055fd9eb553cf6ec1f9320c3b1.png

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Here's an example file.

Look at the two saved views and the class visibilities for each.

One is called "normal view". One is called "should be timber only".

 

You can see my wall and roof face objects each are made of two components: timber layer and an insulation layer.

 

In the saved view "should be timber only", I don't want to see the insulation on the roof. It should have disappeared like it has for the walls.

 

components.vwx

Edited by line-weight
re-uploaded attachment with correction
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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
57 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

Matt

We have all come a long way.

I remember the old days when I would have to call you on the phone and have you explain to me how to use 'Doodle". !!   🙂

 

LOL!!!

the good old Doodle! days!

That was a very fun plug-in to work on!  While it wasn't as integrated as the Sketch feature, it did have some pretty cool features.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
2 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

It had tons of value.  Don’t sell yourself short.

At the time it was light years ahead.

 

Thanks, Kevin!

There were still some users out there using Doodle up until I started working at Vectorworks.  They still may be...  🙂 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
19 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Here's an example file.

Look at the two saved views and the class visibilities for each.

One is called "normal view". One is called "should be timber only".

 

You can see my wall and roof face objects each are made of two components: timber layer and an insulation layer.

 

In the saved view "should be timber only", I don't want to see the insulation on the roof. It should have disappeared like it has for the walls.

components.vwx 202.51 kB · 0 downloads

 

I took a look at the file in VW 2018 (the version it was last saved in) and see the issue.  However, it works as expected in VW 2021.  I did not check version in between.

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1 minute ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

I took a look at the file in VW 2018 (the version it was last saved in) and see the issue.  However, it works as expected in VW 2021.  I did not check version in between.

Ok. Thanks.

 

It's good to know it works in the current version at least.

 

There's another problem I notice with roof face objects... turn off the class they are in, and they appear as ghost selections when you move the cursor over their location. I don't know if that's also only in VW2018.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
52 minutes ago, line-weight said:

There's another problem I notice with roof face objects... turn off the class they are in, and they appear as ghost selections when you move the cursor over their location. I don't know if that's also only in VW2018.

 

I still see something similar in VW 2021.

 

Bug submitted:  VB-175913: Roof Face Geometry Snappable for Roof Face in Invisible Class

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
5 hours ago, line-weight said:

@Matt Panzer if we are on a roll with bug checking, are you able to replicate the problem I describe in the thread I linked to yesterday, with roof faces being drawn incorrectly?

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/73056-is-vw-drawing-this-roof-face-wrongly/

 

I do see the issue with the file in VW 2021.  However, if you move one of the Roof Faces away from the other and then move it back, the problem goes away.  Can you try that to see if it works for you?  Also, if you can recreate the problem, would you mind submitting a bug with the file and the steps to repeat it?

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55 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

However, if you move one of the Roof Faces away from the other and then move it back, the problem goes away.  Can you try that to see if it works for you?

This doesn't help with the behaviour I was experiencing. In fact it makes the joint worse:

504501918_Screenshot2020-12-15at15_22_32.thumb.png.a3d8f1526e42b3d0862db47fe8440884.png

This is with two roof faces that are trapezoids. They started off square/perpendicular + the joint was fine. Then I clipped them in plan to make them trapezoidal + got the funny joint. But if I then clip the roof again to get rid of the angled edge + make it all square again the joint is fine

Screenshot 2020-12-15 at 14.50.31.png

Screenshot 2020-12-15 at 15.21.57.png

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
37 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

This doesn't help with the behaviour I was experiencing. In fact it makes the joint worse:

 

This is with two roof faces that are trapezoids. They started off square/perpendicular + the joint was fine. Then I clipped them in plan to make them trapezoidal + got the funny joint. But if I then clip the roof again to get rid of the angled edge + make it all square again the joint is fine

 

Have you tried clicking the "Remove Mitered Edges" button in the Object Info palette?  That also might help.

In any case, sending files and steps to recreate these problems via BUG SUBMIT would help us look at these problems.

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3 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

I do see the issue with the file in VW 2021.  However, if you move one of the Roof Faces away from the other and then move it back, the problem goes away.  Can you try that to see if it works for you?  Also, if you can recreate the problem, would you mind submitting a bug with the file and the steps to repeat it?

 

- if I move either face away and back, in top-plan view, nothing changes.

- if I move the grey roof face away and back, in a 3d view, then the problem does go away when I look at it in top-plan again

- if I move the brown roof face away and back, in a 3d view, then the problem doesn't go away when I look at it in top-plan again.

 

Some other things you can try replicating:

1) open file, don't move anything

2) use the combine-connect tool in either vertical or mitre joint mode, to try connecting the two roofs

3)the brown one turns into a thin sliver

 

and

 

1) open the file, do the move-away-and-back process on the grey roof face to "fix" it

2) use the combine-connect tool in either vertical or mitre joint mode, to try connecting the two roofs

3) the brown one gets a big bite taken out of it

 

and

 

1) open the file, keep it in top-plan view

2) use the connect-combine tool to connect the two faces, vertical mode (still in top plan view)

3) Note that the connection line moves

4) View in 3d: a correct connection has happened, with the faces aligned at their top face

5) staying in 3d view, using the connect-combine tool alternately between vertical and mitred join mode seems to function correctly.

 

In amongst trying all this, I got to a point where using the combine-connect tool in vertical and mitred mode alternately did not work properly (the mitred mode refused to change anything and it stayed as a vertical join, which seems to replicate @Stéphane's problem.... however, I could then not remember the exact steps I took to get to that point!

 

I have not got time to test further at this stage but maybe some of the above will provide some clues?

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@Matt Panzer I know we are supposed to go through the "bug submit" process - the reason, very briefly, I'm often reluctant to do this, is it takes up a load of extra time, repeating what has already been written out in a forum thread like this.

 

And if I'm going to spend that time writing something up, I'd rather write it up on a forum thread where other users can read, comment and perhaps benefit, than submit it into the ether where I may never hear anything again.

 

Because so many bugs don't get fixed for years and years, it's better to have a public record of them, so that at least people can find the thread, understand that there's a certain problem with that tool, and maybe decide not to waste time trying to use it.

 

I feel it should be the job of VW to do the admin of getting the bug logged into the system. After all, it's VW that's supplying the product that doesn't work, and users don't get paid for the time they spend writing up problems.

 

Not in any way a criticism of you or other VW employees - I would rather this message reached the people who make the decisions about how things are resourced, including how many VW staff are given sufficient time to properly read and respond to problems raised in the forums.

 

Thanks for your help on this so far though.

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22 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

I still see something similar in VW 2021.

 

Bug submitted:  VB-175913: Roof Face Geometry Snappable for Roof Face in Invisible Class

 

Oh yeah and something similar to this: using the push-pull tool, I think that faces of wall components in invisible classes are in some way snappable, or at least the push-pull tool finds those faces - as seen in this screenshot (VW2018)

 

1739863038_ScreenShot2020-12-15at10_40_18.thumb.jpg.82d22562dbd9faa3a24e0950c21ae55d.jpg

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The other thing I've noticed is that if you have a simple pitched Roof with multi-components + with the top component projecting beyond the roof edge on all sides, then you ungroup the Roof to convert it into two Roof Faces, then you adjust the angle of one of those Faces, in the process you lose the projection on the verges of the moved Face (it's retained at the eave). Then if you use Connect/Combine tool to rejoin those two Faces you lose the projections on the verges of the other Face as well. But the mitred joint between the two is fine. Until you clip a hole in the roof then the joint messes up...

 

So @Stéphane in the roof you're modelling are you needing to set different edge conditions for the different components or is that not an issue for you?

 

Luckily I've only ever done simple pitched roofs with gable ends so far so never come across any of this before. But it's a bit disconcerting to learn how limited your options are...

 

It feels as if the higher up the building you get the worse the tools perform!!

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I wish that *all* multicomponent layered objects would let you choose to adjust the geometry of each layer independently and manually if you wanted. That includes walls.

 

An example where the wall tool falls apart - a dormer cheek, where you might want the inner layer to extend between floor and ceiling (and be rectangular in elevation) and where you want the outer layer to run between eaves and roof pitch line (so be triangular in elevation). Or any number of variations on that theme. At this point, I just give up on the wall tool, and have to build it manually from directly modelled objects.

 

Same sort of situation arises with roofs too. Sometimes you just want to tell VW manually where each component needs to extend to.

 

As soon as you give up and build the thing out of directly modelled objects, of course you lose all the convenience of easily cutting window openings through multiple layers.

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1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

So @Stéphane in the roof you're modelling are you needing to set different edge conditions for the different components or is that not an issue for you?

 

@Tom W., I'm not sure to understand your question. Edge conditions ? What I did : 

- draw two squares in 2D plan view 

- convert them into Roof Faces 

- give them different angles 

- line the top of them up in elevation 

- connect them with the Connect/Combine Tool 

-> proper mitered joints 

- clip a hole in them 

-> no more mitered joints 

- reconnect them with the Connect/Combine Tool 

-> bug

 

 

 

Edited by Stéphane
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