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Stéphane

How to control two roof faces intersection ?

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Hello, 

 

I have two roof faces - highlighted in orange. I want them to intersect on my red intersection line as shown below. In other words, I want my edges A and B to be tilted - not vertical. Is there a way to do this ? The goal is to have nice continuous components in Section VP.

 

I would appreciate your advices.  

 

 

 

545053254_Capturedcran2020-12-1110_47_52.thumb.png.5ee8f8055fd9eb553cf6ec1f9320c3b1.png

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I think you want to use the combine/connect tool using the left-hand mode (see the two options with the red line shown)

 

I've found this tool not always to be 100% reliable connecting roof faces though.

 

508361096_ScreenShot2020-12-11at10_26_21.thumb.jpg.be8eb2166c314bbdbf15ddffd63a2427.jpg

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Thank you very much, @line-weight, for you quick answer. 

 

I have already tested this combine/connect tool, but it wasn't satisfactory. Is it the same problem you mentioned in your unanswered post ? 

 

Dual Object Connect join them vertically, as shown below. This is precisely what I don't want because it generates a "gap" resulting in an none-continuous component. 

368967782_Capturedcran2020-12-1111_38_21.thumb.png.afad480eeedc7317f71ec1e54d62b54c.png

 

 

Dual Object Combine give me an error and doesn't do anything. Theoretically, is it this mode I should use for my purpose ? Do you believe it could be a geometry issue ? 

318290948_Capturedcran2020-12-1111_38_53.thumb.png.84f7d238e5cf4e3577a945f26630dfff.png

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Hi @Stéphane. I think "dual object connect" is the correct one to use. I think you are doing this correctly.

 

I have just done a test and I get the same result as you do: I get a vertical join, when it should not be a vertical join. This is when I am using this mode:

 

1053380585_ScreenShot2020-12-11at11_33_32.thumb.jpg.befcca6dafca9aea18f39e996c6e6b72.jpg

 

So, either we are both doing something wrong, or the tool is not functioning correctly. Maybe someone else can help.

 

Which version of VW are you using? I am still using VW2018.

Edited by line-weight
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Might have found the beginning of an explanation... It doesn't work properly when you connect a flat roof (0.0000000°) with a tilted roof. When I fake the flat roof (0.00000001°), it works better. I say "better" because there is still something weird happening but I cannot exclude it's a design issue. @line-weight, does your issue (the post you linked) involve a flat roof ? 

 

1966283891_Capturedcran2020-12-1112_38_55.thumb.png.5b404cd761c3a41321f6bd349d4274c9.png

Edited by Stéphane

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7 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Which version of VW are you using? I am still using VW2108.

 I am using VW 2021 SP1. 

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Yeah,I have had the same issue and could never actually get it to resolve the connection.

my workaround was to change ever so slightly the roof thickness on one of the roofs so they met up acceptably.

Not the best solution, but it did work.

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Right, so it looks like it's yet another dysfunctional tool, and a problem that has persisted through at least 4 releases of VW?

 

Can anyone from VW confirm whether it's ever been reported as a bug?

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Stéphane said:

Might have found the beginning of an explanation... It doesn't work properly when you connect a flat roof (0.0000000°) with a tilted roof. When I fake the flat roof (0.00000001°), it works better. I say "better" because there is still something weird happening but I cannot exclude it's a design issue. @line-weight, does your issue (the post you linked) involve a flat roof ? 

 

1966283891_Capturedcran2020-12-1112_38_55.thumb.png.5b404cd761c3a41321f6bd349d4274c9.png

 

No, my problem in the other thread did not involve a flat roof. Also, the test that I did today was for two roofs, one 30 degrees pitch and one 15 degrees pitch, and it did not work.

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20 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

Yeah,I have had the same issue and could never actually get it to resolve the connection.

my workaround was to change ever so slightly the roof thickness on one of the roofs so they met up acceptably.

Not the best solution, but it did work.

 

An entirely unacceptable workaround for anyone wanting to use it in accurate construction drawings, of course.

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In my world, I never use the roof tool as an overall thickness for the roof anyway. I create the actual roof rafters with only the thickness being attributed to the roof sheathing on top of the rafters.

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Same here, for the most part. There are certain buildups where the insulation is outside the rafters and in those cases it would be nice to be able to use the roof face object for multiple layers. But probably it would become infeasible anyway at edges where some layers need to be set back relative to others.

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2 hours ago, line-weight said:

Right, so it looks like it's yet another dysfunctional tool, and a problem that has persisted through at least 4 releases of VW?

 

After having done several tests, I would share your conclusion. It is dysfunctional. 

 

- doesn't work if your roof has a hole in it 

- doesn't work if one roof face is flat 

- doesn't work if the intersection is not perpendicular to the roof edge 

 

 

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Hi @Stéphane so when I use the Connect/Combine Tool to join two Roof Faces using Dual Object Connect Mode + Mitre Roof Face Joins Mode I get a satisfactory mitred joint every time except when one of the roof faces is horizontal - then I get the unsatisfactory vertical joint you describe. But when I change the angle to 0.1 degrees I get a nice mitred joint:

364033940_Screenshot2020-12-11at17_04_59.thumb.png.2a9cff1799c0b1214d45e3b4c903fae7.png

 

166485738_Screenshot2020-12-11at17_05_12.thumb.png.5a3da4e81142e0e3a077d4fbeca9b142.png

 

1902656006_Screenshot2020-12-11at17_11_53.thumb.png.cb005138d6a511743a77f104ab6a37de.png

 

So to me this is all working pretty well. I could live in most circumstances I think with a 'flat' roof being 0.1 degree off horizontal.

 

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

 

Or is it just a very temperamental tool + I've just been lucky?

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Thank you very much, @Tom W., for your input. I did the very same test you described, and it works very well and everything is very nice, indeed. The only thing is that the structure you made is very simple, and it doesn't work so nice anymore in more complex situations.

 

I could also live with a "flat roof being 0.1 degree". But this is not the only issue. For instance, add a hole in the middle of the joint and it won't work anymore. At least in my experience.  

 

 

Edited by Stéphane

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Thanks @Stéphane after I posted I messed around some more + came to the same conclusion. As soon as I clipped my roof faces so they were no longer nice + square the results weren't so good...

307518979_Screenshot2020-12-11at17_37_44.thumb.png.c7985f8c136979fb870e06d30e5531ce.png

2072081869_Screenshot2020-12-11at17_37_56.thumb.png.ad73283666bb0db7dd09c662f81c1d1c.png

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6 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Thanks @Stéphane after I posted I messed around some more + came to the same conclusion. As soon as I clipped my roof faces so they were no longer nice + square the results weren't so good...

 

307518979_Screenshot2020-12-11at17_37_44.thumb.png.c7985f8c136979fb870e06d30e5531ce.png

2072081869_Screenshot2020-12-11at17_37_56.thumb.png.ad73283666bb0db7dd09c662f81c1d1c.png

 

I encountered the same issue when joint line is not perpendicular to the edge, exactly as you did. 

In case of a hole in the middle of the joint, it is even worse. 

 

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6 hours ago, line-weight said:

There are certain buildups where the insulation is outside the rafters and in those cases it would be nice to be able to use the roof face object for multiple layers. But probably it would become infeasible anyway at edges where some layers need to be set back relative to others.

Hi @line-weight I think you're talking about the edge condition of roof components. When I played around with this I was quite happy with the degree of control I had to set where the individual roof components finished in relation to the wall. I could get the eaves detail looking just the way I wanted it in section. But what was not so good was the fact that the edge conditions applied to all of the roof edges at once, which would be fine if you had a hip roof bearing on identical walls on all sides but not so good if you had a gable roof where you wanted the components to behave quite differently at the gables to the eaves. This is from memory I've not used it much I could be wrong. 

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On 12/11/2020 at 7:43 PM, Tom W. said:

Hi @line-weight But what was not so good was the fact that the edge conditions applied to all of the roof edges at once, which would be fine if you had a hip roof bearing on identical walls on all sides but not so good if you had a gable roof where you wanted the components to behave quite differently at the gables to the eaves. This is from memory I've not used it much I could be wrong. 

 

yes - this pretty much matches my experience - if I remember right. The fact that you can't have it behave differently at gables/eaves makes it useless for 90% of real life situations.

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It's a shame because you can manipulate/control Slabs in all sorts of satisfactory ways: using wall hole components, clipping components,  adding/subtracting 3D objects, sloping the surface, tapering components, create solid section from grade object, lots of control over individual edge conditions, etc. Be great to have the same flexibility with roofs. 'Roof/Slab Modernization' was in the road map but in the 'Active Research' section...

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One other thought....from my experience as being a designer / builder in a galaxy far far away at one point in time....Flat roofs have to drain....which means the roof can't be dead flat, unless you slope it in various directions towards drains within the flat roof mass...which has its own set of problems to let the water exit.

 

I am sure Stephane will be yelling at me for bringing this up. :-)

 

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My parents have a totally flat roof.

 

It is called "Kaltdach" (cold roof),

where the Sealing is under the (water resistant) Insulation,

pebbles above the Insulation.

No slope at all and mostly all time humid, but will cool in summer.

 

Unlikely to be mixed with sloped Roofs though.

Edited by zoomer
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