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Inconsistent behavior of slabs attributes (or I am missing something)


Stéphane

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Hello, 

 

I'm working on my workflow and there are still little things that I don't understand... 

 

A cut wall takes its component attributes and a wall beyond the section line takes its wall attributes. Somehow, this logic doesn't work on slabs. Why ? Am I missing something ? Is it a bug ? Is it as it should be ?  

 

My general problem is the following : 

Objects that are beyond section line need to have thin lines (0.05-0.10)

Objects that are cut by the section line need heavier lines (0.18-0.25) 

Important objects (like structures) that are cut by the section line need even heavier lines (0.35-0.50) 

 

I haven't found yet the way to do it ! How to achieve this ? This is something I need to produce proper architectural plans. 

 

A workaround I am still using is to set a class attribute for Object Beyond Section Line in Advanced Properties. Issue with this workaround : 

- Surface Hatch will have the same color as other objects beyond section line (but it is a no go because I want my surface hatch to be colored and other objects to be black)

 

 

Please see below a commented screenshot to illustrate my issues... 

 

 

I would appreciate your help and/or advice on best practice. 

 

1216442939_Capturedcran2020-11-1816_49_27.thumb.png.a23adc3f680d2af68ec582c0fa380fe8.png

Edited by Stéphane
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19 answers to this question

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In order to not let this topic fall in the oblivion pit (because I really need an answer), let me relaunch this topic with related questions : 

- How do you manage lineweight in section VP in your practice ? Do you set your class with its section attributes (typically thick lines) or its beyond section attributes (thin lines) ?

- In my first post, did I expose my issue clearly enough ? Do you need further explication in order to answer ?  

Edited by Stéphane
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On 11/18/2020 at 9:54 AM, Stéphane said:

A cut wall takes its component attributes and a wall beyond the section line takes its wall attributes. Somehow, this logic doesn't work on slabs. Why ? Am I missing something ? Is it a bug ? Is it as it should be ?  

This is an interesting situation, and I may not be entirely accurate with what I am about to type.  I just know how frustrating it can be to ask a question and not get any help.  Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your statement after doing a little experimentation.

It seems a cut wall AND the wall beyond the section line take on their component attributes, slabs do the same thing.

I noted that the top and bottom of walls in cut sections take on their container object's attributes, I don't understand the reasoning behind that decision.

 

Unfortunately, the Section Pen attribute (found inside the slab's components) of a Slab does not behave as I would expect...It uses this value in BOTH section plane and elevation beyond.  That seems like a bug, or illogical operation for sure.  Walls also use their component definition, not the container object's class, to depict the edge condition of a wall shown in elevation beyond the section plane.

 

You can address developing your desired graphics a couple of ways...

With a Wall, you could change the Left Pen Setting within a wall style's definition for the exterior cladding and make it a thin value based upon how you would like it to appear in the "beyond the cut line" scenario.  You would then use the advanced properties to create a Profile Line on a class of your creation with a thick pen setting, which would cover up this thin line in the section plane while depicting the elevation beyond to your liking.  The obvious downside to this is the dependency on a wall style setting to achieve this, potentially requiring restyling many wall styles and creating a management headache.

 

For your colored hatch patterns in elevation, you can edit them and use a color or grey inside the hatch definition independent of the container object's class.  This will not be effected by the class used to place the wall, but will be overridden if you use Advanced Properties and assign a class for objects beyond the section line with different attributes.

 

For the Slab issue mentioned earlier, you could set the components to the pen thickness you would like to see in elevation and rely on Advanced Properties-Profile Line to depict them in section correctly.  

 

I have to admit, after doing this deep dive into the section settings, I'm left disappointed by the means of control and the resulting output for those who desire fine control.  I have just used Vectorworks to generate quick linework of sections and elevations in the past.  If I need something to pop or use particular graphic conventions that the Advanced Properties can not provide, I just draw in the viewport annotations.  Looks like I will continue to use that methodology, unfortunately.

 

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Jeff

I am not sure at all if this will be of any help.

As you know, when it comes to configuring section options, there are quite a few.Definitely a personal preference.

 

I prefer to use the 'separate cross sections' options, mainly so I can see the interior and exterior elements of a well, as opposed to just merging everything together.  I also prefer to use attributes of original objects and lastly, as you will note from the screenshot, I create a class, in this case, called 'section background lines' mainly because I like to see items beyond the section cut as a lighter, gray line.  Again, just my preference. I also configure my wall styles to have the exterior and interior material use a very light thickness, with the actual structural part (2x6 in this case) use a much heavier line weight, which does make it 'pop' off the page a bit.

None of this refers to your comments regarding hatches or slab considerations, however.

 

Within the comments you had made,  would this help in your situation?

 

1659682148_ScreenShot2020-12-17at7_27_06AM.thumb.png.6adca27e49c41e13dfa477ae72579f6b.png

809306607_ScreenShot2020-12-17at7_27_42AM.thumb.png.8b7677d9cda778093df19881bbe85dc3.png   936175856_ScreenShot2020-12-17at7_49_18AM.thumb.png.dbe287123020ee13e34eaa8eb0221457.png

 

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@Kevin K Hey Kevin, you and I set our sections up in similar ways.   Though I like to use the Add Profile Line option, primarily because the vast majority of my sections are site sections 🙂

 

My reply on this thread was purely to get some help for @Stéphane and satisfy my curiosity of wether or not the graphic problem he has posed can be solved thru settings alone.  I suspect it can not, but I hope I'm wrong.

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Jeff and Stéphane

Sorry, I kind of missed the boat on the issue.  I had to re-read through Stéphane's post again.  I was a bit confused. I still may be. :-(

 

So, tell me....is his (the) main issue he is having involve what he points out regarding the thicker line for his slab ??  He wants it to be a thinner line?

Is that correct, or am I still missing the point??

Frankly,  I never use the slab tool.  I just extrude things and class them accordingly.

 

I also have a question.  

Why would you use colored lines of any sort on items that will be included in a set of plans that will eventually be submitted to the building department, etc?

The reason I DON'T is because when you have your plans printed at a service bureau they are usually printed in grayscale, unless you want spend a lot of money having a 24 x 26 set of plans printed in color??  

Colored lines, converted to grayscale,  absolutely does not work in my experience. 

 

 

1315308488_ScreenShot2020-12-17at2_48_49PM.thumb.png.cadf6f62a534e8cc4eb4d50614b5a917.png

 

Here is another item to be aware of that may have something to do with his slab lines being so dark.  I have been fooled and had this issue in the past. 

Not sure about that since I don't use slab items, as I had mentioned, but worth noting if slab style are configured similar to wall styles.

 

 

But.....for example say I have set up a wall style as noted in the screenshot with all the correct line weights. IF you are not careful to make sure the

setting for "EDIT WALL ATTRIBUTES" is set to the lowest line weight in your wall style set up...you will get the results noted below.

 

2062587694_ScreenShot2020-12-17at3_48_15PM.thumb.png.f668419c432961c7ba1119190732793c.png

 

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Sorry, that might have been a bit arcane.

Stéphane, maybe it would be easier to resolve your issues if you could upload the file for us to take a look at?

That may not be desirable, but it can be difficult to problem solve these type of things without actually having the file.

just a thought.

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First, thank you very much @jeff prince and again, @Kevin K, for your answers. I feel relieved, since I use exactly the same strategy for the attributes in Advanced Section Properties, which means I cannot be completely crazy ! 

 

 

On 12/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, jeff prince said:

It seems a cut wall AND the wall beyond the section line take on their component attributes, slabs do the same thing.

 

Look at my section, it doesn't. Cut wall take on their component attributes, and walls beyond section line take on the wall attributes. Based on my test, slabs don't do the same thing. (If I am not completely crazy). 

 

 

On 12/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, jeff prince said:

Unfortunately, the Section Pen attribute (found inside the slab's components) of a Slab does not behave as I would expect...It uses this value in BOTH section plane and elevation beyond.  That seems like a bug, or illogical operation for sure.

 

Okay, I am not completely crazy. I tested it and that was also my feeling. 

 

 

On 12/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, jeff prince said:

For the Slab issue mentioned earlier, you could set the components to the pen thickness you would like to see in elevation and rely on Advanced Properties-Profile Line to depict them in section correctly.  

 

This could be a nice idea. I will give it a try. But notice that it is the 180° reverse logic compare to the walls. So, we give walls class attributes, their section lines thickness. And we give slabs class attributes, their elevation lines thickness. Then, we override the slabs lines thickness when they are cut and we override the walls lines thickness when they are in elevation. Honestly, I'm pretty sure VW want us to be crazy. 

 

 

On 12/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, jeff prince said:

For your colored hatch patterns in elevation, you can edit them and use a color or grey inside the hatch definition independent of the container object's class.  This will not be effected by the class used to place the wall, but will be overridden if you use Advanced Properties and assign a class for objects beyond the section line with different attributes.

 

Exactly. This is the whole issue with this. So, I use the same setting as you with the Objects Beyond Cut Plane setting to force each lines beyond cut plane to be thin and black. Now, I want my Surface Hatches to be grey. But they become black because of this override. Well, no problem, I untick Objects Beyond Cut Plane. But now my slab in elevation has a thick line ! This is exactly the reason why I try to solve this slab lines thickness issue. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Kevin K said:

So, tell me....is his (the) main issue he is having involve what he points out regarding the thicker line for his slab ??  He wants it to be a thinner line?

Is that correct, or am I still missing the point??

 

Yes, it is correct ! This issue is actually linked to the previous quote. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Kevin K said:

Why would you use colored lines of any sort on items that will be included in a set of plans that will eventually be submitted to the building department, etc?

 

The green is just for the test. I actually want them grey, which is also a color 🙂

 

 

15 hours ago, Kevin K said:

Sorry, that might have been a bit arcane.

 

Don't be sorry. I realize my whole post is arcane. You are very kind and patient. Thank you for this. 

 

 

Edited by Stéphane
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Stéphane

Thanks for responding.  I would still like to get my hands on that file!!!   :-)

 

One item....regarding the hatch issue......could you not just make a duplicate of that hatch and change the hatch settings to be gray?  Then override the settings for the viewport to use they gray hatch settings?? 

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9 hours ago, Stéphane said:

Look at my section, it doesn't. Cut wall take on their component attributes, and walls beyond section line take on the wall attributes. Based on my test, slabs don't do the same thing. (If I am not completely crazy). 

You're right, I just did some testing with bright colors and fat lines and see the error of my ways 🙂

 

9 hours ago, Stéphane said:

Honestly, I'm pretty sure VW want us to be crazy. 

They will never admit it, but it is clearly the strategy 🙂

 

It is a shame that the section control within a Slab Style doesn't seem to work correctly.

Despite this, a solution has been arrived at 🙂

 

1661978136_ScreenShot2020-12-18at9_41_27PM.thumb.png.00d052ea4c40e1c87b8b6837fa1e8d78.png

 

This discussion got me thinking of a video I did a while back to demonstrate class overrides to solve a simpler issue.

So that inspired me to use the class overrides, stacked viewports, and the viewport controls we have been discussing.

It is far from ideal, but it is a workflow that could work ...primarily for increasing hourly billings or keeping interns busy during slow times.

I have attached my vectorworks file with the steps of the process used.

Neither simple nor desirable in its execution, yet satisfying to have at least solved the riddle 🙂

 

 

 

section practice-final.vwx

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On 12/18/2020 at 6:24 PM, Kevin K said:

I would still like to get my hands on that file!!!   🙂

 

Sorry for the delay. There we go. 

 TEST FILE.vwx

 

 

On 12/18/2020 at 6:24 PM, Kevin K said:

One item....regarding the hatch issue......could you not just make a duplicate of that hatch and change the hatch settings to be gray?  Then override the settings for the viewport to use they gray hatch settings?? 

 

The thing is I want 2 colors in elevation. Grey for the hatch and black for the other lines. The green is just for the test (makes it more obvious) but it should be grey. 

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@Stéphane Ok, I had a look at the test file and tweaked a few items:

 

1) I added a class ( in English) called "SECTION BACKGROUND LINES"

2) I attached my version of the test file, which I believe solved your issues with the line weights from your earlier post.

3) Take a look at it and let me know if I addressed your issues with the the various line weights.  IF I missed something do let me know.

4) Note the screenshot image below so you can see where I applied the new class I created in the option under 'Line Style' - Objects Beyond the Cut Plane. This uses the new class I created.

 

338802788_ScreenShot2021-01-04at12_40_28PM.thumb.png.d4d4e3a9955bb459db75bf87f18ec4ec.png

 

TEST FILE KEVIN V 2020.vwx

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@Stéphane  Also.....you may be aware of this already, but do make sure that your 'Zoom Line Thickness' option is turned on after you open the file I sent.  

Normally you would not work with Zoom Line Thickness enabled for day to day work, but if you want to see how something will look when printed, it will give you a very good idea, when it comes to line weights, etc.

 

With that setting activated, in the screenshot below, you can clearly see the line weights and pen colors of the area that was sectioned and the area behind the section cut, which has lighter gray lines, as I believe you wanted.

 

1091647438_ScreenShot2021-01-04at1_36_09PM.thumb.png.1421061939efc612585965c292ac35c5.png

 

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Posted (edited)

With this solution @Kevin K, you solve the elevation thickness of the slab in elevation (under the "59200" marker), but now everything that is beyond the cut line has one single color which is your grey. It doesn't look bad tho. However (and sorry if I might be too picky), what I would like to do is being able to give more than only one attribute for objects beyond cut line (for instance grey 0.05 for the surface hatch and black 0.10 for the other objects). In this case, this means we cannot use Objects Beyond Cut Plane. 

 

If we don't use Objects Beyond Cut Plane, it means we have to be able to control lines thickness of an object when they are cut AND when they are in elevation. This is the case for walls (as described earlier) but not for slabs as explained below. 

 

After having done further tests, my conclusion, sharing @jeff prince one, is this one : 

 

Section Pen Attribute for slabs components doesn't work as expected. That's it. 

 

On 12/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, jeff prince said:

Unfortunately, the Section Pen attribute (found inside the slab's components) of a Slab does not behave as I would expect...It uses this value in BOTH section plane and elevation beyond.  That seems like a bug, or illogical operation for sure.

 

After all, I would say that @Kevin K way to do it, is still the best way. 

Edited by Stéphane
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