Jump to content

3D Devices


AceRoehrborn

Recommended Posts

Should non-rack devices be rendered in the "Rack 3d Layout"?  

 

My drawing has a number of non-rack mounted devices.  For example TV's, ETC dimmer Racks, speakers, and control panels.  As I added these devices to the schematic, I was careful to add all the X,Y, and Z dimensions.  I would like to layout these devices in 3d space next.

 

All these devices properly show up on my 2D Rack Elevation when I do ConnectCad ->Layout->Update Rack elevation.  Is there a way to do this using all the dimensions I entered in the Schematic Layer?

 

I have tried creating a device on the Rack 3D layout layer with the Equipment Item tool.  It creates a 3d Device, like I would expect.  I have given that equipment item the same name as a device in my schematic but the devices doesn't seem to associate or pull dimensions from the schematic.  I have tried running the update rack elevation and it does not seem to update the 3d Device with dimensions or Make/Model information.

 

These instructions seem to indicate this should be possible, but may just be vague about the fact this only works in 2d?

http://app-help.vectorworks.net/2020/eng/VW2020_Guide/ConnectCAD/Placing_equipment.htm 

 

Not sure if this is even possible or if I am doing something wrong.

 

Neil

 

Link to comment
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

@AceRoehrborn Hi Neil,

 

The choice is yours and really depends on the level of detail your project requires. Equipment Items can be placed in 3D models of the building your are working in to show the exact positioning. Or for some projects it may be completely sufficient just to indicate which area (Room) the kit is located in. In these cases really all you need is a 2D layout which is normally convenient to do in the same layer as the 2D rack elevation.

 

Equipment Items have a checkbox Draw in Front View which is displayed when the equipment is outside of a rack. This lets you select the mode most appropriate. If I was doing a simple 2D layout along with my racks I would check the box so the view is consistent. You can also use symbols as graphics for Equipment. If you check the Use Symbol box then you can select a symbol to display instead of the default graphics. So, if the manufacturer provides a 3D model of the equipment you can import it, create a symbol from it and have your gear drawn in glorious 3D !!!

 

The layer names in the standard template are not compulsory - you can use whatever layer names suit your purpose.

 

The reason we have 2D and 3D racks is quite simple - building racks with 2D drag and drop is fast and simple. The 3D rack is just a visualisation tool for the 2D rack. We would do it all in 3D if we could, but we don't have really great  3D editing ... yet...

 

Regarding your questions about schematic devices vs. equipment, here's how it works... The Equipment Item represents the physical device. You can have more than one schematic device with the same Name. ConnectCAD will assume that these refer to the same piece of Equipment that also has the same name. Once an Equipment Item exists for a device the physical characteristics of the device are controlled by the Equipment for all devices with that name, and those parameters are disabled in the OIP.

 

The only reason we have physical device info in the schematic device is because that allows us to create all the equipment in one click - a massive time-saver.

 

Each piece of Equipment should be uniquely named across your project. If you have two or more Equipment Items with the same name ConnectCAD will use the first it comes to. Check Drawing has a function to locate duplicate Equipment. We do not automatically enforce unique naming because that would limit your workflow.

 

Hope I've managed to clarify a few things. Thank you for putting your questions here. This is how I discover what people find confusing so I'll look for ways to make this workflow clearer in the software and the documentation.

 

Best

 

Conrad

Link to comment

Conrad,

 

This information is super helpful!  The background information helps a tremendous amount!  I should have noticed and played around with the display checkboxes but overlooked that. 

 

It seems like there is a limitation with the 3D symbols here.  I have taken the dimmer rack in my drawing as mentioned above.  I de-selected "Draw in Front View" and selected "Use Symbol" fortunately the VW library already has a symbol for an ETC DRd12 so I selected that as my symbol.  It renders in glorious 3d just as you said.  The only thing is I can't rotate the symbol?  I would like to place it along the wall in the rack room where it needs to be but it needs to be rotated 180 to go on the "drawing south" wall it will be placed on IRL.  That is kind of a bummer limitation.

 

I can probably work around it by editing the symbol.  Any better solutions?

 

Long term, a nice feature might be to associate the symbol with the device in the device builder at the time of creation, maybe even pull weights and dimensions from the library symbol??

 

As we design lighting systems for install with this tool it is interesting to see where the ConnectCad features and Spotlight features kind of bump into each other.  I have not gotten there yet on my current project, but I could easily see drawing the dimmer rack, data distro racks, plug strips etc... (those are pretty clearly, ConnectCad).  The next logical step is to start dropping moving lights into the schematics to show the wiring diagrams, cable counts etc...   But then we are very quickly into spotlight territory with the actual fixtures.  Just for fun I placed a "light" on a drawing in ConnectCad, let ConnectCad create it in the elevation layer, converted to 3d using your process above.  That is all awesome and theoretically is 90% of the way to have the light plot complete, however the connect cad symbol is not a spotlight lighting device and can't be converted to one it seems.  Not a complaint, just food for future thought as this product develops.

 

Thanks again for your help.  Your response time and complete explanations are awesome!

 

Neil

Link to comment
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hi Neil

 

Well being in a lockdown and getting bored does improve my response time 😉 . Thanks for pointing out the issue with rotating an Equipment Item - I just confirmed that and the team will be on that first thing Monday morning.

 

And yes, we are working together with the Spotlight team to make it all play nice together. Expect even better things in the near future.

 

Conrad

Link to comment

Conrad,

 

Another follow up question..

 

You said "The layer names in the standard template are not compulsory - you can use whatever layer names suit your purpose."

 

I had originally assumed/wanted equipment to be on multiple layers, however I have been having intermittent success with this and have been fighting with duplicate equipment items being created.  I thought I was going nuts because this seemed to be intermittently happening. I assumed I was doing something wrong or this was not a supported feature and have now been keeping all my equipment on the Rack Elevation Layer, after reading your comment I there may be an issue/bug here as well.

 

I ran this test

  1. In a new document, I created a new device and duplicated twice then renamed the duplicates to be unique so I have Unit1, Unit2, Unit3.
  2. Run Update Rack Elevation
  3. Three Equipment Items are created on the rack elevation layer , Unit1, Unit2, Unit3. (So far so good)
  4. Move Unit1 to a new layer (Test Layer).
  5. Run Update Rack Elevation a second time.  Unit1 is re-created on the Rack Elevation Layer.  So now I have two Unit1 (s) each on a different layer.

The duplicate being created is obviously not ideal and the problem I have been struggling with

 

However if I do the following...

 

  1. In a new document, I created a new device and duplicated it twice then renamed the duplicates to be unique so I have Unit1, Unit2, Unit3.
  2. Run Update Rack Elevation
  3. Three Equipment Items are created on the rack elevation layer , Unit1, Unit2, Unit3. (So far so good)
  4. On the Rack Elevation layer Select Unit1 -> edit something about the item (I changed the model number and just added a "-1")
  5. Move Unit1 to a new layer (Test Layer).
  6. Navigate back to the Schematic Layer
  7. Run Update Rack Elevation a second time.  Everything seems to work correctly.  Unit1 remains on the test layer and is not duplicated on "Rack Elevation Layer". 

Notes*

-I ran this test a few times and it does not seem to matter if I changed the model number on the device or the equipment item.

-If I moved the Equipment item to the TestLayer and then edited it still worked correctly and did not duplicate.

-The issue only seems to occur if Update Rack Elevation is run after changing the layer of equipment items without changing any parameters of either the Equipment Item or schematic device. 

 

So it seems like somehow ConnectCad is loosing track of the Equipment item to Device association if the equipment item is moved to a different layer unless an edit is made on the equipment item to cement the association???

 

I tried to replicate this test in my main drawing and the edit workaround does not seem to work does not seem to work on my main drawing.  It seems no matter what I do if I move an Equipment item to a different layer than Rack Elevation, the next time I run the Update Rack Elevation on that schematic layer the Equipment item will be re-created on the Rack Elevation Layer, creating a duplicate to the Equipment item that was moved to a different layer.

 

Thoughts?  

 

You mentioned that in the event there are duplicate Equipment Items the first one it comes across will be used.  How does it determine "first", especially if Equipment is on multiple layers?  I assume highest layer (lowest number) and then left to right top to bottom across the drawing or something like that?  Maybe this has something to do with what layers are visible, greyed etc... or my layer options?

 

Neil

Link to comment
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
6 hours ago, AceRoehrborn said:

You said "The layer names in the standard template are not compulsory - you can use whatever layer names suit your purpose."

 

I am getting ahead of myself. The layer Rack Elevation is still created by the command Update Rack Elevation if it does not exist. This will change.

 

6 hours ago, AceRoehrborn said:

So it seems like somehow ConnectCad is loosing track of the Equipment item to Device association if the equipment item is moved to a different layer unless an edit is made on the equipment item to cement the association???

Thanks for raising this and testing so thoroughly! We will look into it and see what's happening. As I said above this will in any case be changed so the problem will go away. I will get back to you with some news about this.

 

6 hours ago, AceRoehrborn said:

You mentioned that in the event there are duplicate Equipment Items the first one it comes across will be used.  How does it determine "first", especially if Equipment is on multiple layers?  I assume highest layer (lowest number) and then left to right top to bottom across the drawing or something like that?  Maybe this has something to do with what layers are visible, greyed etc... or my layer options?

I would not even go there! Drawing order is not something you should rely on since it will change as you make edits. The thing to do is avoid duplicate equipment items.

 

Best regards

 

Conrad

 

 

Link to comment
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Further to this: from what I am seeing moving the equipment item after it is created causes it to reset and link to the device. You can tell that the device has got the message because the Physical parameters are disabled.

 

Obviously there is something here we need to look at. Thanks again for the heads-up.

Link to comment

Tried to re-create what you are seeing.  At first I didn't get the same result.  I think I figure out what you did.  Here is what I am seeing.

 

Run the Update the Rack Elevation command, devices are created "Rack Elevation.  If I move my equipment items (while on rack elevation layer), then look at the schematic layer (device block) the physical parameters are confirmed disabled. Then I move the devices to a different layer.  Then do the update rack elevation command, all the devices are re-created on the default Rack Elevation layer.  

 

 

If I do it this way: It works

Run the Update the Rack Elevation command.  Equipment Items are created on the rack elevation layer.  Select the devices, change layers.  Then moved them while they are on the new layer.  Double check physical parameters are greyed out.  Then re-run Update Rack Elevation and no duplicates are created.  So that way works and seems to fix it.

 

Seems like the link is broken when the are moved from layer to layer??

 

Good luck sorting this out!  Thanks again for the help.  I will use the workaround for now!

 

Neil

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Conrad,

 

I noticed another weirdness related to this layer change issue.  There seems to be a limitation if equipment items are on different layers than the room layout they are not picking up the room information when placed within the room.

 

 Keeping with the same example from above:

-A room is created on the Rack Elevation layer,

-Rack Elevation update command is run.

-Equipment items are created on the Rack Elevation layer, but they are created outside of room (aka the default creation location is not inside the room).

-The equipment item layer is changed to "Rack Elevation 2".  Then the equipment item is moved on the Rack Elevation Layer 2 and placed in the room (which now exists on a different layer) the equipment item does not pickup the room information.

 

If I move the equipment item into the room prior to changing layers (while it is still on Rack Elevation layer), it does pick up the room information, and that room info will stick through the layer change.  However if the item is moved to a different room the room information does not seem to update.

 

Thanks.

Link to comment
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hi Neil,

 

I wouldn't expect an equipment item to "know" that it is in a room placed on another layer. How people decide to use layers varies a lot. Surprisingly I discovered recently that Layout Room objects and Equipment play nicely together even when working in 3D. The room can only be a rectangle (right now) but it can pass its ID to equipment (on the same layer) placed inside its XY bounding box. Which might be good to know...

 

Conrad

Link to comment

Conrad,

 

I have most of my Equipment in 3d now and it is nice that even in 3d it picks up the room information.  Awesome teaser news that we might be able to make rooms shapes other than rectangles in the future!

 

In my current project I have Audio, Video, and Lighting equipment each on a layer.  I am calling them Rack Elevation Audio, etc.. just for clarity  I have the rooms laid out on the auto created Rack Elevation layer.  Managing the equipment if it moves from room to room is a bit clunky.  If I need to move a piece of equipment from one room to another the following steps must be done:

 

1)Select equipment on Rack Elevation Audio

2) Change layer to "Rack Elevation"

3) Move Equipment to new room while on Rack Elevation Layer where the rooms are laid out).

(Note* X,Y needs to change while on the layer where the rooms exist so the room information is picked up.  This means the item can't be moved to the "new" room on the Audio layer, the move must occur while on the layer with the rooms laid out.  If the item is moved to the new room on the Audio layer, after layer is changed it is necessary to move it out of the room, then move it back into the room while it is on the "Rack Elevation" layer where the rooms exist.  Just changing layer and having the equipment show up in the room on the Rack Elevation is not sufficient. Additionally it seems moving the item around in the room on the Rack Elevation layer does not grab room data, it actually has to enter the room from outside the room to get tagged with the data.

3)Once room info is picked up change layer back to "Audio Layer"

4)Change X,Y Location again to re-establish link to schematic layer link to avoid duplicates.  *Bug from above which you have indicated will be fixed.

 

Just kind of a clunky process, especially if you don't know this process (which is probably not obvious).

 

In my current job, it would be great if Equipment items would would grab room data across layers.  I think the way I would prefer to work would be to layout the rooms on their own layer and just let them live there.  My current project is being drawn on top of the building drawing proved by the architect so I really have limited need to ever see the or print the VW rooms, they exist only for the behind the scenes cad functions.  There is however probably a different use case scenario where this could be a problem, especially if a building has multiple floors and layouts would need to overlap.   So while this might me nice for me right now it may not be a good long term solution and I completely get why this is not part of the software function right now.

 

So big picture do you have a workflow in mind for this or any better workarounds than what I am doing?

 

Possible solutions I have brainstormed:

Copy rooms to layers

-Is it possible to just copy the rooms to all the layers (Audio, Lighting, Video) so the rooms are duplicated and exist on the other layers?  

-Can rooms with the same name exist on different layers without causing issues?

 

Edit rooms in spreadsheet report

It also appears that it is possible to change the room name in a spreadsheet report.  I have not been bold enough to try this yet for fear of unknown consequences.  That would certainly be another workaround that would work for me, assuming the change in the spreadsheet pushes the data back to both the schematic device and the equipment item on the elevation layer so everything stays in sync.  This could would result in the equipment being physically located in a room, but have different data attached.  Although based on my experiences moving equipment items on layers without rooms it appears this might not break anything as the equipment items seem to just retain whatever location data they have until it is updated???

 

 

Thanks!

Neil

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...