Speaker Array - Rigging Frames & Pull-Back Bar

[Mark Aceto]

I'm trying to accomplish 2 things:

1. Add a Pull-Back bar symbol to the bottom box in the array
2. Keep the rigging frames that are in the original speaker symbol

My assumption is that these objects are not visible in the array because they don't have a record attached to them... 

 

Just trying to get one step closer to this reality:

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Mark -

 

At-present, the tools only recognize the 3 speaker types and a single bumper type.  That being said, you CAN trick the tools by creating a speaker Symbol (w. all data attached) that is actually the pull-back bar.  That Symbol would then become one of the 3 types in your array.

 

 

[Mark Aceto]

@C. Andrew Dunning that’s what I tried in the attached screenshot but I didn’t attach any data.   Do I want to have all of the geometry selected or deselected when I attach the record?

[C. Andrew Dunning]

DEselect all geometry.

See the latter pages of the ATS manual for more detailed info on the data Symbols need and the correct formatting.

 

[Mark Aceto]

41 minutes ago, C. Andrew Dunning said:

DEselect all geometry.

See the latter pages of the ATS manual for more detailed info on the data Symbols need and the correct formatting.

 

Got it. Sounds like the pre-v2021 way I’ve been doing it. Easy peasy!

[Mark Aceto]

@C. Andrew Dunning the records are attached but what I'm noticing is that only the boxes that are at 0º tilt will show all nested symbols.

 

I rearranged them to test that theory:

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[C. Andrew Dunning]

The Autohybrud system might not be sure what to do w. some elements.  Shoot me a copy of the file and I'll take a look.

 

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Mark -

 

I found the issue in the file you sent:  The Symbol contained an embedded Symbol (the rigging frame) and AutoHyrid was failing at that.  I converted the embedded Symbol to a group (Cmd-K) and all worked beautifully.  Now...rendering/regen time w. something that detailed is another story, entirely...

 

[Mark Aceto]

Hey Andy,

 

That solved the issue with the pull-back bar visibility. However, the rigging frames (already generic solids nested in that symbol) are still only visible at 0 tilt:

 

 

Converting the rigging frame hybrid symbol to a generic solid also loses it's weight which I was hoping to get in a Baceworks-aware calc:

 

 

OpenGL render time was a few seconds on my wimpy MBP:

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[Mark Aceto]

OK, I sort of figured it out with the exception of the Braceworks caveat. I cut the rigging frames from the nested speaker symbol, exited that Edit view, deleted the remaining 2D geometry, and pasted them in place (at the top level of the symbol along with the pull-back bar). I didn't expect that to work because the manual says all (speaker and bumper) symbols need to be hybrid.

 

I'm going to test this with converting those objects to 3D only symbols... 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Mark -

 

The "LYON-W" Symbol (the one NOT including the pull-back - in the file you sent) contains both Generic Solids and the embedded "Rigging Frames" Symbol.  It is that Symbol that is causing issues.

 

As to "non-Hybrid," the tools should throw errors w. that...

 

[Mark Aceto]

Tested and confirmed that both conditions need to be met:

• Pull-back Bar and Rigging Frame objects need to be generic solids
• Pull-back Bar and Rigging Frame objects cannot be nested in the speaker symbol
  • I'm sure I'm saying that wrong but in layman's terms, they need to be at the top / parent level of the speaker symbol

Edited November 14, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Bingo!!

 

[Mark Aceto]

And the record (with weight data) is still attached to the generic solid! I never thought of doing that before... so there aren't even any caveats!

 

Thanks for helping me solve this!

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[C. Andrew Dunning]

100% my pleasure!

[C. Andrew Dunning]

For those of you still following this thread, we just released updates for all of our tools.  As part of that, AudioArray 2 now supports multiple bumper types:

 

 

If you're interested, see http://www.landrudesign.com/VWPlugIns.htm for more info.

[aheininen]

Are your new tools going to be part of Vectorworks stock tools in the future?

[C. Andrew Dunning]

6 hours ago, aheininen said:

Are your new tools going to be part of Vectorworks stock tools in the future?

 

Good question!

 

The best answer I can give is "maybe."  It really depends on user demand and what Vectorworks chooses to license.

 

[scottmoore]

Great work as always guys. Quick question regarding weight calculations and your processes on projects:  do you take the BraceWorks calculated weight and compare that to the manufacturers data provided by your audio vendor?  To my way of thinking, one would be better served to input the data from the manufacturer than relying on BraceWorks, especially if the arrays are hanging from dedicated hoists and not attached, either by hoist or dead hung, to a truss structure.  Just curious. 

[Mark Aceto]

7 hours ago, scottmoore said:

Great work as always guys. Quick question regarding weight calculations and your processes on projects:  do you take the BraceWorks calculated weight and compare that to the manufacturers data provided by your audio vendor?  To my way of thinking, one would be better served to input the data from the manufacturer than relying on BraceWorks, especially if the arrays are hanging from dedicated hoists and not attached, either by hoist or dead hung, to a truss structure.  Just curious. 

BW calcs the weight data in the symbol record, so it’s as accurate as the data entered (garbage in, garbage out). However, there are some weird BW limitations I’ve run into when it comes to speaker arrays and the myriad methods of hanging them.

[scottmoore]

11 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

BW calcs the weight data in the symbol record, so it’s as accurate as the data entered (garbage in, garbage out). However, there are some weird BW limitations I’ve run into when it comes to speaker arrays and the myriad methods of hanging them.

Understood. I am of the opinion that it’s better to rely on the manufacturer’s calculations than hope that the data entered into BraceWorks and the resulting calculation is correct.  
 

Any reputable audio vendor using major manufacturers equipment will utilize an application that calculates those weights specific to which hole is selected on the bumper, the particular angles of each cabinet and whether or not there is a tilt back bumper underneath. Most riggers and engineering firms would be more apt to look at these numbers I believe. 
 

I am just concerned that we open up a potentially huge can of liability worms when we try to make VWX be the end all be all of production work. I love the idea of it and am seriously impressed with your work and attention to detail (as always), but we all need to be careful. 

[Mark Aceto]

10 minutes ago, scottmoore said:

Understood. I am of the opinion that it’s better to rely on the manufacturer’s calculations than hope that the data entered into BraceWorks and the resulting calculation is correct.  
 

Any reputable audio vendor using major manufacturers equipment will utilize an application that calculates those weights specific to which hole is selected on the bumper, the particular angles of each cabinet and whether or not there is a tilt back bumper underneath. Most riggers and engineering firms would be more apt to look at these numbers I believe. 
 

I am just concerned that we open up a potentially huge can of liability worms when we try to make VWX be the end all be all of production work. I love the idea of it and am seriously impressed with your work and attention to detail (as always), but we all need to be careful. 

I would definitely go with a Soundvision report over the alternatives.

[scottmoore]

2 minutes ago, Mark Aceto said:

I would definitely go with a Soundvision report over the alternatives.

Agreed

[Mark Aceto]

One thing to keep in mind is that braceworks will calculate a 1.5X safety factor so if a user is mixing flavors of point load calcs on their plot, they should clearly annotate or consistently calculate, if for no other reason than clear communication with the rest of the team (safety).