Applying Material to Window Glass

[Tom Klaber]

I am making a window style.  I went to the glazing section of the class settings and was hoping to make the window glazing a material to control the glazing texture - but that does not seem possible.  So I will need to make a MATERIAL class to control this.  Is this correct?  If so - materials should be able to be assigned to plug-in components.

 

 

[E|FA]

I haven't built new templates for 2021 yet, but based on @Tom Klaber's question, I took a quick look and don't see material support for these items either:

 

Doors: Door Settings -> Classes, but no way to use materials

Stair: Stair Settings ->Graphic Attributes has a Materials column that is all blank & no way to change

Railing/Fence: Railing/Fence Settings ->Attributes has a Materials column that is all blank & no way to change

 

 

 

Am I missing something?

 

With only partial integration of Materials, will we need to maintain a full class system for these objects, while also maintaining a material system for objects that do support them?  If that's the case, I think I'll wait a year or two for a set of best practices to be established by VW and other users.  

 

@Wes Gardner and @JuanP: Do you have a sample model showing best practices for materials in a single family residence that you can share?  I've asked this elsewhere, but think it's worth repeating in this context.  Thanks.

[Guest SMannVW]

Hi Tom,
You're correct. Materials are not yet assignable to the Door & Window tools.

[E|FA]

@SMannVW

 

In that case, the VW Help system is incorrect, or at best misleading (e.g. stairs & fences in quote below):

Quote

Materials can be applied to the following object types:

●       Components of composite construction assemblies such as standard walls, slabs, roofs, and landscape areas

●       Parts of plug-in objects that are composed of different parts, such as curtain walls, stairs, structural members, fences/railings, architectural/structural columns, and pilasters

●       Plug-in objects that are inserted into other objects and functionally become part of the original object, such as wall caps and wall features

●       2D and 3D geometry, including planar objects, extrudes, sweeps, NURBS surfaces, solid additions, subdivisions, 3D primitives such as spheres, and others; these objects can maintain the material assignments within symbol definitions and when converted to auto hybrids

 

Since not all elements are assignable, that means that the following description in the help system is also inaccurate or incomplete (e.g. "ALL fill and surface..."):

Quote

By leveraging materials’ packaging of graphic attributes and information useful in a BIM model, you gain capabilities such as:

●       Centralized and instantiated cataloging of all fill and surface representations for the BIM model

●       Simplified listings and outputs of specification data (classification standards)

●       Detailed material take offs (by construction category) for composite construction assemblies, such as component walls, roofs, slabs, and so on

 

If I want to incorporate Materials in my workflow, what is the recommended process?  For example, if I want to achieve the same fill & surface representation for a window sash (class based) and the architectural component of a column (material based), I have to create, maintain, and coordinate a material for the column and matching class for the window.  Is that correct?

 

Before wasting too much time setting up a new 2021 template using materials, rather than sticking with my 2020 setup, it would be helpful if someone at VW would: 

1. Post a comprehensive list of which elements have materials assignable, ideally within the help system.
2. Provide a roadmap/timeline as to when/whether all of the other elements will have materials assignable
3. Provide a sample model showing VW proposed best practices.   A 2021 update of the previous VW University file would be greatly appreciated. (https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/page/view.php?id=495)

Just trying to get my head wrapped around this.  Thanks.

 

EDIT: Reported feedback to VW Help system https://www.vectorworks.net/support/help-feedback

EDIT: Added link to 2020 sample model

Edited October 23, 2020 by E|FA

[zoomer]

2 minutes ago, E|FA said:

Post a comprehensive list of which elements have materials assignable, ideally within the help system.

 

Windows and Doors, additionally, still don't have access to Story Levels.

[Tom Klaber]

Yeah - this is a problem.  I prematurely erased all my material classes and replaced them with Materials in our new template.

I am sure it is not quite an all or nothing thing, but instead of simplifying things - now the work seems doubled as I have to maintain the class and the material resource and apply the class in the cases where the material is not available. 

 

[E|FA]

24 minutes ago, Tom Klaber said:

now the work seems doubled as I have to maintain the class and the material resource and apply the class in the cases where the material is not available.

I'm glad I didn't start my new template.   I'm hoping the inconsistency was an oversight, or necessitated by lack of time for the 2021 release, and will be remedied quickly.  I'm not holding my breath, though, and I think I'll be holding off on using Materials until the dust settles.  VW 2022?

[_c_]

I found out that for the moment materials cannot be used and removed them all. As stated elsewhere, the level of added complexity is untenable.

The attributes are permanently in the way, you fix something in one place, it breaks the display somewhere else. And you cannot use them only for the data, there is no way to tweak that.

 

With materials, we need multiple classes for the same material, we increase thus not only the complexity of what object's attributes are -see screenshot below, 4 ways of setting up a tool, explain each of them to new users- we also inject more classes than before, duplicate materials just for the display. This is exactly what the introduction of materials wanted to streamline.

 

And all this still won't get us a display, since there are still all the overrides and settings of viewports and section viewports.

If VW was a simple and visually direct tool for the architect, this is, I am sad to say, long gone.

 

 

[Rick Berge]

On 10/23/2020 at 2:17 PM, E|FA said:

Stair: Stair Settings ->Graphic Attributes has a Materials column that is all blank & no way to change

Railing/Fence: Railing/Fence Settings ->Attributes has a Materials column that is all blank & no way to change

 

@E|FA,  For Stairs, go to the Graphic Attributes and choose one of the 3d portions, not the 2d. Then the dialog that pops up does have material controls.  Railing should be the same. 

Hope this helps,

Rick

[E|FA]

@Rick Berge Thanks for pointing me to the materials settings for the stair & railing tools.  Do you have any responses to the rest of my questions and/or can you forward this to someone at VW who does.  In particular:

 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:46 PM, E|FA said:

If I want to incorporate Materials in my workflow, what is the recommended process?  For example, if I want to achieve the same fill & surface representation for a window sash (class based) and the architectural component of a column (material based), I have to create, maintain, and coordinate a material for the column and matching class for the window.  Is that correct?

 

Before wasting too much time setting up a new 2021 template using materials, rather than sticking with my 2020 setup, it would be helpful if someone at VW would: 

1. Post a comprehensive list of which elements have materials assignable, ideally within the help system.
2. Provide a roadmap/timeline as to when/whether all of the other elements will have materials assignable
3. Provide a sample model showing VW proposed best practices.   A 2021 update of the previous VW University file would be greatly appreciated. (https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/page/view.php?id=495)

Just trying to get my head wrapped around this.  Thanks.

 

[E|FA]

@_c_ Also: 

[Rick Berge]

I can answer some of the general issues raised by you and Tom, but I'll have to leave workflow to others. 

 

Materials can be used by any plugin, but not all plugins or plugin developers have fully opted-in yet. Given that reporting was going to be a big part of the feature we tried to get all site-built architectural and terrain shaping parts working first, to deliver value there. Compare windows which aren't typically built on site vs curtain walls which have lots of material settings for the various frame and panel pieces. 

[E|FA]

@Rick Berge Thanks for explaining the reasoning behind prioritizing material reporting over graphic representation in rolling out Materials functionality.  While having consistent graphic representation would be a priority for my practice, I understand that it is probably different for other users.  In any event, is the intent to add Materials to all other building components, and if so, what is the expected timeline?

 

Also, in terms of "leaving workflow to others", who at VW are the most appropriate "others" to ask?  If you can't tag them publicly in the forum, can you please relay the request privately.  I have requested this in other posts, and have not heard back.  Even a negative response would be better than no response.

 

EDIT on November 30, 2020:  Repeating that "Even a negative response would be better than no response."

Edited December 1, 2020 by E|FA
Hoping for a response

[E|FA]

I don't see adding Materials to all objects in the VW development roadmap, so I'm assuming they won't be of real use to my practice.  I will continue ignoring them for the foreseeable future.  Too bad, because Materials seemed like a powerful feature, but without universal applicability to all objects, it seems like a half-baked idea that should have been completed before it was actually released.

 

I'm curious to hear if anyone has found a good use case for Materials, whether for architectural work or other.

 

 

_ 

[Ben Beaumont]

On 12/2/2020 at 5:16 AM, E|FA said:

I don't see adding Materials to all objects in the VW development roadmap, so I'm assuming they won't be of real use to my practice.  I will continue ignoring them for the foreseeable future.  Too bad, because Materials seemed like a powerful feature, but without universal applicability to all objects, it seems like a half-baked idea that should have been completed before it was actually released.

 

I'm curious to hear if anyone has found a good use case for Materials, whether for architectural work or other.

 

 

_ 

It seems a Material carries all the metadata that otherwise might not have a home. So it sets a project up to be measured. The fact it can also have a Texture (and by proxy a Surface Hatch) is a nice to have and - it seems - a convenient way to help visualise a project.