Vulkan Drivers

[Samuel Derenboim]

Will VW ever use the open source vulkan drivers? Any discussions regarding that? Just curious? It's becoming very competitive with OpenGL, D3D and DX12

Edited September 9, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[rDesign]

Here’s an older thread from late 2018 discussing Vulkan -vs- Metal:

 

[zoomer]

As far as I understand from keynotes and interviews,

the plan was always to prepare VGM to go Vulkan for cross platform.

Support for Apples Metal by MoltenVK in-between layer.

 

The last interview or statement I read, after Apple's Keynote, was more

about bringing true Metal support for the VW Apple version soon,

therefore OpenGL, Vulkan or DirectX for Windows and maybe even

delaying Windows graphic updates.

 

[Samuel Derenboim]

So I'm guessing this release is only concentrating on Metal API? Interesting though, how were the engineers able to speed up VW Graphics module for windows if their concentration was mostly for the Mac platform?

[Dave Donley]

Hi:

 

Our graphics modernization efforts continue apace.  As the graphics in Vectorworks are modernized we get access to more profiling and debugging tools, and these have been critical to showing where Vectorworks graphics (and the geometry etc in general) can be optimized further.  So both platforms are being developed.  Our crucial goal is to support Metal on the Mac, since OpenGL is deprecated.  Apple Silicon GPUs are also in the mix now, so our users may be on Intel, AMD, NVIDIA, or Apple Silicon for the future.

 

[zoomer]

1 hour ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

So I'm guessing this release is only concentrating on Metal API?

 

AFAIU

Metal support for VW may come with VW 2022.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Dave Donley said:

Apple Silicon GPUs are also in the mix now,

 

I am very excited about this.

[Samuel Derenboim]

33 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

Apple Silicon GPUs are also in the mix now,

I am very excited about this.

_________________________________

@zoomer Why?

Edited September 9, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[zoomer]

47 minutes ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

Why?

 

I was never excited about former rumors about Apples switch to ARM.

Because I thought, more efficient or not, ARM was only interesting for

low power devices, far below our CAD and 3D needs.

 

Until the last Keynote and developer videos.

Apple promised they will transfer their whole line up including Mac Pro

and they promised Apple Silicon will scale up.

(If they would fail they would be doomed)

 

So beside Apples strange pro hardware offers over the last decade and

the Intel debacle and renouncing of better AMD CPU offers,

after many years I have hope again that Apple will get again a viable

3D platform and that I can stay with Apple. Which I still prefer.

(My 2 year tries to switch back to Windows or to Linux partly failed)

 

Now I am really fascinated by their new optimized ARM Architecture,

which eliminates some legacy architectural bottlenecks and

their API offers that allows optimized Software.

Apple's optimized Silicon may not have the highest power in raw numbers

for synthetic benchmarks vs latest AMD CPUs or Nvidia GPU power.

But the overall system of optimized and efficient Hard AND Software

will IMHO be very fast for real world tasks on even small devices.

I think this is the future.

 

IMHO it doesn't make much sense  to just port Software for Big Sur

and Apple Silicon with tricks like Vulkan over MoltenVK or even just

rely on Rossetta2. Either full support or better not at all.

 

Especially complex 3D DCC Software isn't well known for optimized code

and full of legacy. So it is quite unlikely that all of them will follow Apple

and optimize their code.

But if some do like Vectorworks and C4D promise that is great.

If that doesn't work out well I am sure there will come lots of great new Apps

developed from scratch, even from iOS/iPad Developers, that will do

interesting things.

Maybe no complete App packages like Vectorworks or Cinema, maybe

just smaller Apps which will do only a few specific tasks, but do these right.

So that you can combine a few Moduls, like a 2D CAD and Layout App with

a 3D Modeler, a Renderer and a BIM Module.

 

 

TL;DR

 

I am so fascinated by Apple Silicon and think it is the right way to go that

I want to go that way even there may be some restrictions.

But as an Apple user, I was always used to live with their restrictions.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by zoomer

[mjm]

3 hours ago, Dave Donley said:

Hi:

 

Our graphics modernization efforts continue apace.  As the graphics in Vectorworks are modernized we get access to more profiling and debugging tools, and these have been critical to showing where Vectorworks graphics (and the geometry etc in general) can be optimized further.  So both platforms are being developed.  Our crucial goal is to support Metal on the Mac, since OpenGL is deprecated.  Apple Silicon GPUs are also in the mix now, so our users may be on Intel, AMD, NVIDIA, or Apple Silicon for the future.

 

Really appreciate the concise roadmap there @Dave Donley

[zoomer]

No worries.

OpenGL itself isn't bad at all.

It is just that there will not be much more OpenGL development.

Chronos group says OpenGL will be still  important for the next

10 or 20 years though. (like Windows and Linux ... just not on macOS)

 

Windows users will still profit from updates to VW's VGM with OpenGL.

They can even use a few more newer low level OpenGL functions and newer

OpenGL implementations, without loosing still necessary legacy functions,

because the do not have to care about Apple anymore. Once the Apple

Metal support is established and you don't have to care about Apples

limited OpenGL offers anymore.

 

There may be still some years of work to do in VGM before VW could

profit from a port to Vulkan. And as there is a tedious need to support 2

separate Graphics APIs (because of Apple ....), then there may even

be DirectX as a better choice for Windows.

It is just that Apple is a bit more urgent now.

Edited September 9, 2020 by zoomer

[Samuel Derenboim]

@zoomer 

This is why I prefer Windows. Apple's closed ecosystem gives developers a hard time developing cross platform applications and instead specifically cater to them because of the user base they have. That's why you guys have such a hard time with every OS release. 

 

Hopefully once Wine / PlayonLinux gets more developed and mainstream with Linux, perhaps VW can be even ported there by using compatible opensourced windows OEM windows direct link libraries and .Net libraries to run it. A guy can dream right? 😉

Edited September 9, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[zoomer]

I like Linux very much and would prefer it over Windows

for many reasons. But for the forseable future macOS is still

superior for me and I love all this love to small details.

 

From 2007 to 2012 Apples walled Garden was perfect for me.

I didn't miss anything. 2013 to 2020 was hard. Not because I

couldn't work well, just because I thought Apple is doing

everything wrong and there was no visible future for 3D.

(I won't forget there behaviors and neglecting of whole business

groups though)

 

If Wine/Proton will offer sufficient graphics support for any 3D

DCC App beside just optimizing by and for certain games it would

be a great alternative.

Even a Linux port of VW would be possible if VGM is OS independent

and Vulkan chosen.

(But unlikely by missing interest and other dependencies/politics though.

That is what I have Bricscad as an alternative)

 

I love Windows unrestricted Software and Hardware freedom but

from my latest experience I don't want to work with Windows again.

It would be OK for me as a render slave or 3D App only OS if really

necessary. But your mileage may vary.