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Cable tool Question


MattyB

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Hi All,

 

I'm at the cable tool again, 

Is there any way of choosing which fields can be placed within the drawing, at the moment in the Feeder cable I can add the Length and the Phasing to display on the Drawing, but phasing is pretty useless for me as most of my cables are of the same construction (5G), I would much prefer to have the Wire gauge, or the Connector type, or Cable weight shown instead. Is there a way to choose that?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Regards

Mat 

(the cable tool fool)

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Thanks Mark,

 

Yes quite a good pun, unfortunately I didn't pick it up first time.

I think tags are not what Im after, I want the info embedded in the cable tool, so when I draw a cable it pops up automatically attached. I haven't worked out how to edit a tag into a cable pref.

There is much I don't understand about the cable tool, its a bit like a chocolate teapot. 

There is volt drop, but its calculated at a static amperage max, which is not useful in any way as Vd is a product of actual amperage, which you cant input (useless)

There is a CM value, which I can not get to function (useless)

Ultimately I would like an extensible OIP, so I can nominate that Id like this field drawn on the drawing, and this one and this one, etc...

There are user fields, but that just some where to store some text, in case you feel like typing practice. What would be useful would be if the User fields could make calls on parameters from the drawing, like Length,  modify that, say by a calculation, and have the option to have it drawn on the drawing.. so I draw a cable, plonk in an actual amperage, and the cable shows actual volt drop, on the cable.

When you look at the Irrigation tool, you realise the work has already mostly been done. Instead we get the Irritation tool.

 

Cheers

Mat

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56 minutes ago, MattyB said:

I think tags are not what Im after, I want the info embedded in the cable tool, so when I draw a cable it pops up automatically attached. I haven't worked out how to edit a tag into a cable pref.

There are 3 labels on each cable "Start", "End", and Middle ("Length" and "Phasing" for feeders).  All are hard coded as to what they can display,  AP Cable Tools gives you more choices as to what to display, but even those choices are hard coded in.  So what you get is only what there is.  More choices could be hard coded in, or a whole additional user interface (UI) could be programmed into the tool so you could choose.  The former could and has happened, the latter will probably never happen, but that is not my call.

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

There is much I don't understand about the cable tool, its a bit like a chocolate teapot. 

You learn more every day.

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

There is volt drop, but its calculated at a static amperage max, which is not useful in any way as Vd is a product of actual amperage, which you cant input (useless)

There is a CM value, which I can not get to function (useless)

That's a little harsh.

Max Amperage is calculated from the Wire Gauge, looked up from a table actually.  The CM value is also drawn from a lookup table, so it is unlikely that your input of the CM value would improve anything.  Possible, but unlikely: I think it is based on copper.  Have you been using aluminum or brass wires?

                CMValues[1] := 211592;    {4/0}
                CMValues[2] := 167800;     {2/0}
                CMValues[3] := 66369;      {#2}
                CMValues[4] := 41740;      {#4}
                CMValues[5] := 26240;     {#6}
                CMValues[6] := 16509;      {#8}
                CMValues[7] := 10383;     {#10}
                CMValues[8] := 6530;     {#12}
                CMValues[9] := 4107;     {#14}
                CMValues[10] := 2581;;     {#16}

There is actually some difference of opinion on the correct CMValues for each wire gauge, but those differences are unlikely to make any significant difference on the gross scale of entertainment cabling.
 

The voltage drop is calculated from the following algorithm:  (2 x K x Max Amperage x PartTotal {in feet}) / CM Value) for drawings in an imperial scale.

It is different for drawings in a metric scale:  (2 x Part Total {in meters} x Max Amperage x Phase Shift{always 1}) / (56 * Cross Section{mm2})

Unfortunately phase shifting is becoming more important with the advent of LED pannels, so, in the future, a UI will need to be provided to handle different values in the the Phase Shift factor.

 

Percentage Drop is calculated as:  (VoltageDrop/Volts) * 100;

 

Using max amperage will always result in the maximum voltage drop.  When the voltage drop is actually less, that would usually be a good thing.  Substituting making the user input the actual amperage and their own error prone look up of CM values may give you a more accurate computation of a lower voltage drop, but at a cost that most would not want to pay.  (I asked a number of users)  So...I'm thinking not what you want and even perhaps need, not useless.

 

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

Ultimately I would like an extensible OIP, so I can nominate that Id like this field drawn on the drawing, and this one and this one, etc.

Do you want to have OIP fields reported differently on the drawing than in the OIP, or do you just want to be able to rename the OIP fields.  For the former use data tags for the latter change the Alternate Name in the Plug-In Manager. 

 

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

When you look at the Irrigation tool, you realise the work has already mostly been done. Instead we get the Irritation tool.

 

Not everyone wants what you want.  Unless there is no cost.  I know.   That always surprises me too.    Whether or not it is worth the effort to program a feature falls between the two extremes of:  for the programmer, "it is too much trouble for the return", and the user, "it should read my mind".  To be fair, the programmer is usually more lazy than the user is demanding.  After all, it is the programmer's job to deliver the useable tool.  However, any feature/functionality that is undertaken to be provided delays (sometimes permanently) other requested features.  I cannot tell you what improvements VW has in store for their cable tools, but for AP Cable Tools, data communication between objects, and better cable path editing will probably always trump letting you look up CM values.  Hey, but keep asking.  I have been separated from building shows more and more, which makes user requests and feed back indispensable.  But really?  "Instead we get the Irritation tool."  If it causes more irritation than aid, you should consider polylines.

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The cable worksheets are built from the choices made in the dialog that comes up in the "Create Cable Worksheets..." command.  To what "Template" are you referring?

 

There must be a template from which this worksheet is to be built. When I do a cable report i get the standard worksheet, if I then want to USE this information I have to populate new rows and columns to apply calculations, IE, take the length, apply the resistivity of copper, as per the cable Size, and work out a Zs (R1+R2) + Ze. I have to do this every time!!!

 If I could save as default the worksheet with my added columns and rows that hold these formulae, then I could populate the allowed fields to the drawing (like phasing). It's easier to manually transfer this to Excel, Or export to Excel, so what is the point of having a worksheet in VW, if you have to go to a third programme and start typing....,?

 

To qualify, I may be missing a whole lot of stuff here, but Ive been beating on the Cable tool for 3 days now and am no wiser to its use.

I just want to keep drawing, I could do this with crayons and have. There is a promise of functionality, that , in my case, is not realised.

 

Matty

 

*(excellent pun, before,)

 

 

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Additionally,

 

I mess with VW on a sandbox machine, to not mess with my primary tractor, so it could be that I have screwed up some functionality by modifying the P'in-manager, but can anyone give me the CM of any cable/source? Then I will know its my end.

 

Cheers

Mat

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13 minutes ago, MattyB said:

There must be a template from which this worksheet is to be built.

Well no,  There does not have to be a template.  The worksheet is built from "CreateWS()" and SetWSCellFormula() Vectorscript procedures

 

17 minutes ago, MattyB said:

When I do a cable report i get the standard worksheet

Are you using the Spotlight "Create Report..." command or the Spotlight "Create Cable Worksheet..." command?  However, in both cases there is no "standard" you have a bunch of choices to make.

 

23 minutes ago, MattyB said:

If I could save as default the worksheet with my added columns and rows that hold these formulae

Do you want to save them to the file you working in or to a resource you can use in any file?  For the former, rename (to a different name) the worksheet and it will not be over written the next time the command is run.  If the latter, you would need to save your worksheets as part of a template file just like any other resource.

 

26 minutes ago, MattyB said:

There is a promise of functionality, that , in my case, is not realised

What functionalities do you desire?  List them, specifically.

 

22 minutes ago, MattyB said:

I mess with VW on a sandbox machine, to not mess with my primary tractor,

Now I feel ignorant.  What is a "sandbox machine"?   What is a "primary tractor"?  How do they relate to the cable tools?

 

11 minutes ago, MattyB said:

I just kicked the Beast, and CM doesnt work there either.

What is the "Beast" and how is CM supposed to work?

 

26 minutes ago, MattyB said:

can anyone give me the CM of any cable/source?

CM values are hard coded into a table for common stage wire gauges.  The table was compiled from a variety of sources.  Are there gauges that you need that are missing?  I should put them AP Cable Tools.

BTW, what would the cables with the new wire gauge sizes be used for?

Thanks.

 

 

 

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Wow, thank you Sam,

 

I will have to think hard about each of these, to construct a cohesive reply. 

In the meantime, I appreciate your interest in my very 'me' specific problem.

 

But, can you use the CM tool, for Anything(!), mine does not work...

 

Cheers

 

Matty

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Quote

Well no,  There does not have to be a template.  The worksheet is built from "CreateWS()" and SetWSCellFormula() Vectorscript procedures

And that command could be expanded to include a template to look up a user defined column or row. In vectorscript. 

Quote

Are you using the Spotlight "Create Report..." command or the Spotlight "Create Cable Worksheet..." command?  However, in both cases there is no "standard" you have a bunch of choices to make.

Create Cable Worksheet, you have a bunch of choices, that is true, but why not lay the whole hog on the table, and make it extensible?

Quote

Do you want to save them to the file you working in or to a resource you can use in any file?  For the former, rename (to a different name) the worksheet and it will not be over written the next time the command is run.  If the latter, you would need to save your worksheets as part of a template file just like any other resource.

Quote

 If the latter, you would need to save your worksheets as part of a template file just like any other resource.

Correct, the latter, A template, so the report populates My worksheet.

Quote

What functionalities do you desire?  List them, specifically.

I want to be able to 'CALL'  parameters from the drawing,

So, I draw a cube, I want to be able to populate the PIO, or Record(?) field,  with this info. 

I then want to be able to call the field, without going to a spreadsheet (excel) apply a User constraint, and tag to the Drawing.

Quote

 What is a "sandbox machine"?   What is a "primary tractor"?  How do they relate to the cable tools?

Ha!, I don't mess with any settings on the machine I use for work, I use my daily driver to run the experiments on, 2020 13".  " Tractor"  its a pet name for something to which people rely upon to get their job done.

Quote

What is the "Beast" and how is CM supposed to work?

The Beast is my "only for Cad 'Tractor' so its stock, and if CM doesnt work there, it doesnt work any where, New york, New York!

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44 minutes ago, MattyB said:
 

Well no,  There does not have to be a template.  The worksheet is built from "CreateWS()" and SetWSCellFormula() Vectorscript procedures

And that command could be expanded to include a template to look up a user defined column or row. In vectorscript. 

 

Well, no, it can't.  It is possible that a VectorScript (VS) command could be constructed to put a custom criteria in the database header, but where would it find the criteria text?  I would go further, but I think the best you're going to get (because you have it already) is saving your meticulously constructed worksheet in a template file and just importing from there or starting with template

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

Create Cable Worksheet, you have a bunch of choices, that is true, but why not lay the whole hog on the table, and make it extensible?

I don't know what you mean.  What is the whole hog you want.  Make what do you mean by "extensible"?  The word has a meaning in computer programming that would be covered in Vectorworks by "vectorscript"

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

Correct, the latter, A template, so the report populates My worksheet

By "template", I meant, under the file many, you need to save a file as a template file that contains the worksheet you have constructed.  I think you are using "template" in some other way.  If you save a file as a template, you can start your drawings from it or you can import resources (worksheets) from it.

 

Again, I have a vocabulary problem.  

1 hour ago, MattyB said:
Quote

What functionalities do you desire?  List them, specifically.

I want to be able to 'CALL'  parameters from the drawing,

So, I draw a cube, I want to be able to populate the PIO, or Record(?) field,  with this info. 

I then want to be able to call the field, without going to a spreadsheet (excel) apply a User constraint, and tag to the Drawing.

 

"I want to be able to 'CALL'  parameters from the drawing,"

I don't know what this means, but let's go to your example.

 

"So, I draw a cube, I want to be able to populate the PIO, or Record(?) field,  with this info."

What PIO or record?

What "info"

 

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Hi Sam

 

Quote

Again, I have a vocabulary problem.

I don't think you have a vocabulary problem, I think I have a vocabulary problem, I often use words that I don't know the real meaning of, or I make up, so thanks for your patience.

 

When I say extensible, I mean that its functionality can be expanded, I know nothing of computer coding, I did some work with XML in my rebellious youth, before realising that I had absolutely zero aptitude for it. Maybe that's where I have stolen the word from.

 

The thing I want the cable tool to do most, is calculate loop impedance, and write it on the cable at any of the marker points.

The Volt drop thingy is so close to what I need to do, but it doesnt actually calculate volt-drop. The volt-drop calculation needs amperage to function correctly, 0 amperage = 0 volt-drop (simplified to heck). There is a field where you can input an amperage value, but it has no effect on the volt drop shown, meaning its not part of the equation, it just shows a max value, which is like removing your car's speedometer and replacing it with a sticker stating 'Max speed 240kph' or replacing your fuel gauge with a 'Max tank capacity: 75litres' sign, sure its information, but not very useful. when i say extensible, i want to get back there and join up the various bits of information the drawing has, to produce the information I desire. It has all the variables, cable length , cable construction, amperage etc just need to get them together properly. I guess my only understanding of how this may work is from filling out formulas in Excel cells, and obviously that is not correct.

 

Failing above, maybe it can be done in the worksheet...

I thought there must be a worksheet that the report tool populates, but I see now that this is not so.  

When I create a cable worksheet I get to choose from many fields that I would like shown, but I would like to add my own custom fields at this point, to say, add column with my loop equation, take the cable info and produce an output.

I can add these columns after worksheet creation, but I was hoping to add it somewhere upstream and have every worksheet have it at creation. My idea of a template.

There is some calculation going on back there, as the cable totals are added, but its done before the sheet is created, or I cant see the formulas within the sheet cells.

I suppose I could have my own worksheet that has its cells linked to the Cable report worksheet, then it could apply my formulas, then I could link the results back to the cable phasing field, (as I'm not using it) and then that could be marked onto the cable in the drawing, There! King of the Kludge!

 

Or I could retreat back to my land of crayons and calculator.

 

Cheers

Matty

 

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Quote

Using max amperage will always result in the maximum voltage drop.  When the voltage drop is actually less, that would usually be a good thing.  Substituting making the user input the actual amperage and their own error prone look up of CM values may give you a more accurate computation of a lower voltage drop, but at a cost that most would not want to pay.  (I asked a number of users)  So...I'm thinking not what you want and even perhaps need, not useless.

 

That's it. I want the chance to make those errors, I am using a metric system, so was confused about the role of CM, but my industry does use aluminium cabling on occasion  (I know, I know, I'm trying to change that, one cable at a time) so I do want to adjust the CM, or metric equivalent.

Being able to calculate the actual volt drop may be an Entertainment specific thing, where I know the actual loading of each and every cable, so I see now why VW may not want to allow that connection.But it is called Spotlight.

 

Quote

Not everyone wants what you want.  Unless there is no cost.  I know.   That always surprises me too.

 

True, I might have to get my wallet out.But in my mind I want so little, the cable tool is so close, I... just...want..it...to...do...just.a..little...more. I just want to mess with the volt-drop calculation, the rest I can live with.

 

Cheers Sam,

 

Matty

 

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It would seem that you want the CM field to change from a static text field to an edit text field where you could override the value provided, and that value that you provide is used to compute the voltage drop.  I can do that with the AutoPlot Cable Tools; I cannot speak for VW and what they are going to do with their cable tools.

You need to understand that any time the Wire Gauge is changed the look up value will be inserted into the edit text field; also, the lookup value will be used when a cable is created.  I wouldn't want other users to have to use there own research to provide CM values.  Am I missing something more that you need?

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Hi Sam,

 

Essentially yes, something like that. Or this..

I would like to be able to input the circuit amperage, and have that give me the true volt drop across the cable.

The loop impedance is essentially the same equation, but with 0 (zero) amperage.

And then have that displayed on the drawing, much like the Phasing field. (the one that's says' 3 hots, 1 neutral, 1 ground (or rather CPC!)).

Is that possible?

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Am I missing something more that you need?

Ultimately, I would like to see the cable tool like the irrigation tool, whereby the sprinklers are our loads, the pipes are our cables, the valves are our distro boxes, main pipes our feeders, and the POC, our generators, or house breakers...

Then as we add elements (loads, cables etc..) the system reports on the drawing, pressure (voltage) and flow (current).

But hey, that's a pipe dream.

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Quote

I wouldn't want other users to have to use there own research to provide CM values

We're Electricians (or I am at least), these kinds of decisions are part of our everyday workload (or should be). If you modify the CM to something off-piste, then you could mark the result in red text, and have a pop-up warning, much like the one that you get in Braceworks. 

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