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VW12 - The Emperor is naked!!!


Skot

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Skot,

That's why I said some, not all responsibity. Let's not get hung up on that as I meant no offense.

The scrolling issue is strange. I'm on a PC 3.2G, 2MB Ram, Win XP Pro, so it's hard to make performance comparisons with your Macs. Do you use the scroll bars or key (shift/ctrl on Win) & mousewheel? How large are your files? I'm able to scroll with the mousewheel in 15MB (all 3D) drawings even when zoomed in, rarely use the scroll bars (I usually zoom out, scroll, zoom in when going from one side of a drawing to the other, so I don't get lost). I don't know why a 2D drawing would be so slow. Give us a step by step of your scrolling technique.

Any thoughts from the forum's Mac Mavens?

George

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No worries George, I didn't feel that I was being attacked, not by you anyway!

When I use 12 on the Powerbook, at a clients office for instance, I don't take a mouse with me so I'm using the trackpad and scroll bars. I can pan with my desktop while using the mousewheel. But even using the scroll bars on my desktop is very slow, as described previously.

Having mentioned this thread to one of the guys here, he reminded me that there is another annoying and all too frequent event with both 10 and 12. Grabbing a handle is much more difficult and double clicking on a line or a box (inadvertent double clicking or not) always launches a completely useless dialog box telling the user that "The selected object has no edit behavior"!?!?

This is beginning to feel like piling on now.

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I've found the scroll bars to pretty useless - long before 12, by the way. When I have to use my laptop, I use a cordless USB mouse.

Does the handle jump between the move & reshape option? Sometimes adjusting the snap radius helps with this (Tools/Options/VW Prefs-Snap Radius).

The double click dialogue box message is a result of clicking on a 2D object. For example, if you create an extrude, double click enters the "edit group" function of the original 2D shape. Helpful for those of us working in 3D, annoying for those in 2D only.

George

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Skot

- I went back and tried VW 8 to see if it was quicker than VW 12 on 2D drawing, and I'm sorry but I can't see it.

- Can you post part of one of your drawings so that people can see the type of 2D drawing you are talking about (includes some text so we can see what font you use). This may provide some clues as to what the issue is.

George

- I never use the scroll bars. The keyboard arrow keys are a much quicker way of moving the drawing around.

Skot

- You can stop the "non editable object" pop-up that is annoying you by checking the VectorWorks Preference / Session option of "Display Minor Alerts on Mode Bar".

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The upgrade thing is a trap for all. Using software is about productivity and being able to share file formats with others. When you plot a drawing and issue it, to the person who uses the drawing, it matters not whether it was hand drawn, ACAD created or done by VW. What matters is that the document id readable and contains information.

Architects and consulting engineers for some time have been exchanging documents in the form of file transfers. When everyone is using the same version of the software... no problem. This is no different than having a friend give you a record to use on your turntable (note the old technology reference). But today when we want to exchange music... we now have many many formats and media options. To be able to listen to music provided by others you need to be able to read their files, their format and their media.

Like music using CAD to produce drawings one faces similar issues. Newer versions offer more features and supposedly productivity increases. But one is forced to get newer platforms / hardware / learn to do things a different way. These changes are meant to be advances, but for many they come at too high a price. A price in dollars and learning curves (time = money)

As a sole practitioner, I would like improvements in productivity and connectivity. Interfacing to the ACAD universe remains the main "interface" problem. Older VW versions don't cut it.

This problem should have been handled by some sort of module upgrade... like a file translator.. which would keep pace with ACAD versions.

3D modeling can be useful and powerful... and time consuming and getting the models to look good is probably a very expensive proposition... probably requiring lots of skill, experience, fast machines and lots of time. Is it worth it? For what size practice?

I found that the VW approach was quite intuitive and enabled me to produce quality 2D drawings which is what I convey to others. I have not been doing the upgrades because my needs are being met by the VW8.52 version I am familiar with. I do miss effective the file transfer with ACAD. I don't have the luxury of time to mess around with upgrades... I need to be productive. This may be self limiting in the end... and as software advances older versions are unsupported, older hardware is unsupported and in the end we are forced to upgrade.

But we do replace our cars and so on, so perhaps we must replace our hardware and software. Anyway MOST will do, but some make do very well with some of the more "basic" technology. Considering how much productivity and precision increase almost ANY CAD software represented over hand drawing, it may seem that the regular upgrades are not worth the cost and the effort.

We got better at drafting over time, but CADing is almost relearning to draw again and again... And we knew that every 2 years... we are doing it all over again.

Evolving the user interface seamlessly whilst adding features and power is the key. I am not sure VW has successfully done this and it may not be possible... I am not a software engineer.

However, when I consider the upgrade to 12 and all the associated issues... it doesn't seem to make sense for MY work... despite the many appealing features.

Does this make sense to anyone out there?

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Jef...that makes some kinda sense.

I work mostly 2d and about 7 months ago went from years in 8 to 11.5. I must say that it was pretty painless and well worth it. Many of the old tools have been improved...trim for one comes to mind. Contextual menus for commands is another. Align/distribute is something that I use a lot. Viewports are huge for me. The resource browser (once you get used to it) is much better IMHO. I know there's more, but 8 has become a dim memory.

Double-clicking in 2d means that you can more quickly enter groups.

Having said all this,tho,I would characterize myself as very cautious when it comes to upgrades of any kind. I held onto v-works8 running in OS9 for the longest time. I have no idea when I'll be ready to try 12.

Skot:

Do you use hatches that were created in 8? I'm not sure if that's even possible, but I do know that hatches have created problems in the past. You'll also note that Mike Oz asked about fonts...another possible source of corruption.

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quote:

Originally posted by Skot:

No worries George, I didn't feel that I was being attacked, not by you anyway!

When I use 12 on the Powerbook, at a clients office for instance, I don't take a mouse with me so I'm using the trackpad and scroll bars. I can pan with my desktop while using the mousewheel. But even using the scroll bars on my desktop is very slow, as described previously.

Having mentioned this thread to one of the guys here, he reminded me that there is another annoying and all too frequent event with both 10 and 12. Grabbing a handle is much more difficult and double clicking on a line or a box (inadvertent double clicking or not) always launches a completely useless dialog box telling the user that "The selected object has no edit behavior"!?!?

This is beginning to feel like piling on now.

take a mouse with you. I can't imagine trying to use any CAD software with the trackpad. I use an iBook.

always use the power cord. Mac portables will power down the processor to save the battery, resulting in sluggish redraws.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

1) You might consider printing to PDF, and then printing that to your plotter, rather than doing the VW12 back to VW8 translation.

2) Your hardware should be fine for running VectorWorks, and no one at NNA has said it isn't. The only thing you didn't mention (except for the PowerBook) is RAM size. For large enough files, you could be hitting virtual memory, which would slow things down a lot. Perhaps a check with the Activity Monitor is in order.

3) File sizes nearly doubled for 64 bit rather than 32 bit precision. Hard disk sizes have multiplied by a factor of 20; is storage really a problem? Many large VW 12 files are large because they have lots of textures and images, for which the 64 bit precision makes no difference. How big are your files?

4) Viewports don't slow down VectorWorks if you don't have any in your program. Nor, save for program startup time, do plug-ins, or having 3-D functionality. A VW2D program generally wouldn't scroll faster in plan view.

5) The Classic workspace has tools and menus very similar to the layout of VW 8. If you don't like the modern layout, try it.

6) Clearly lots of users are not having the same performance problem you are, since they're posting on this thread telling you so. It's not "bait and switch", you being "mislead", etc. It seems like there must be something distinctive about your setup that's causing the problem; have you contacted tech support?

7) Use Mike M's advice re: quieting minor alerts, such as "no edit behavior."

8) I don't happen to have VW8 handy, but I've been working here for ten years, and I've never seen a version distributed on floppies. I think you're overstating things a bit.

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Skot,

Why not return all but one copy of the upgrade to v12? There's a 90 day no questions asked return policy, and one copy would be all you'd need to import the latest DWG files.

I agree that VW has deteriorated badly since v8 for people who are just doing 2D drafting. I would have been happy to pay the upgrade price to get v8 with no added features except the ability to import new versions of AC. As it is, I've stopped buying the upgrades and I'm looking around for other options.

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Mike M

I agree, that's why I said that the scroll bars are pretty useless.

Upgrades:

We all gripe about them, but the "newer, bigger, faster" treadmill is what keeps the economy chugging along. Tail fins on cars in the 60's,now - video on a cell phone! We don't NEED most of the stuff out there, but we'll probably buy it anyway.

George

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We find the workgroup referencing and viewports essential to the way we work. The increased capabilities of these areas in VW12 are very important to us, but we also need these areas to be improved.

We have also upgraded on a relatively regular basis. Keeping current with the software has helped to reduce major downtime between versions for us.

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More than 25 yrs in the custom furniture/architectural woodworking business have convinced me of the value of 3D CAD software. Few clients can look a 2D drawings and get a good mental image of a project. Costly mistakes resulting from interference conditions are also easier to prevent.

Lately, I've been doing most of my rendering with Cinema 4D. It'd be great if NNA could adopt some of C4D's features such as multiple views & heads up display.

George

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first, at least for my distributions Minicad 6 was the last diskette based install, and that was several (6-8 if I recall correctly), not a 'couple.'

Second one of the threads brought up in this discussion has always been of interest to me. There is a fairly vocal and large number of architects and engineers who complain about having to change how they work, that VW's somehow is at fault for making things work differently. What I don't understand is why is it that these same professionals that have had to change and adapt to new codes, new building technologies, new design ideals, fashions, any number of rather sweeping and dramatic changes in the work they produce so resistant to these changes? Of all the population it seems to me that these are the people that adapt to change better than most anyone else. I know this is not the case, and I am not faulting people for it, I just don't understand.

I welcome change, in all aspects of my life and work. I am willing to give new things and methods a full chance, I may stop using them because they don't achieve the results I want or expect?no harm, no foul. Maybe because of this I have been fortunate enough to keep current on operating systems, and the various software packages I use, so I have never had that fish out of water feeling skot and his office is feeling.

I want to be clear, I am not saying that it is wrong to feel this way, it is simply a curiosity to me that a group who can adapt so well to so many changes in almost every aspect of their work feels so put out at seemingly small changes elsewhere.

My humble apologies to those who might be offended by what I am saying, it is certainly my intent here.

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Software and PCs are tools for producing drawings. Drawings are used to communicate information, ideas, and instructions.

Technology is seductive and addictive, but one needs to evaluate if the cost benefit has value to the objective.

In one sense we are forced to keep updating because industry is not supporting older products and there are often no backwards/forward compatibility. When THAT happens we have no choice. And this is happening ALL the time.

Apple did that with the OSX I believe... it is a guilf between generations of software and one is forced to abandon (or upgrade) lots of software to run on the current OS. It may be better, but the old products were working fine.. for the period when they were in play and highly touted at that!

Rather than offer new huge programs, developers perhaps should use a modular approach so that users who don't need all the bells and whistles need not add these features... and those that want them can build them in. But I am not a software engineer and don't even know if this possible... even if it is conceivable.

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quote:

Originally posted by david bertrand:

What do you mean by options? Do you mean dropping VW, or going to separate software to do specific tasks such as 2D or 3D?

I've been collecting demos for other CAD programs, hoping to find time to try them out. I'm still completely satisfied with VW v8, including for importing v2000 DWG files via VW v10, but I figure that eventually there'll be a new Windows version that it won't run on (it's flawless on XP).

I've been using Sketchup for the last 5 years, mostly for the 3D I never had the patience to do in VW or AC, but also to replace some things I used to do in VW, such as field measurement. It has that easy feel that frees me up to think about the building rather than the software, a feel that AC never had and VW is moving away from.

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In the limited time I've been designing with VW, I've found that my clients absolutely LOVE being able to see the building or product in three dimensions with colors and textures and placed into an actual photo of the site. If that's what the client wants, then that's what my business NEEDS and I appreciate Nemetschek for making their product one of the many out there from which to choose.

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Jan15 says,

I've been collecting demos for other CAD programs, hoping to find time to try them out.

Please keep us informed of what you learn.

Have you tried the viewports and work group refs in VW rel. 11 & 12? Those are some of my favorite features of Vectorworks. They give a feeling of power, like a programmer.

I've not completely learned 3D in VW because I really don't like the looks of 3D CAD. It looks too impersonal. It is of course a useful tool nevertheless.

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I still have yet to see how veiwports can be a useful tool for what we do. Every demo of viewports that I have seen is done from a 3D model, already prepared ahead of time. We are strictly 2D in my office. I hear everybody raving about viewports being the end-all, be-all, but I just don't get it.

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In the future we won't even produce construction drawings. We'll just give the builders a disk containing a virtual 3D model, to view on their job-site computers.

But right now I don't know anyone who's using 3D at all, except for renderings to impress a client or a zoning board. I start all projects as full interior/exterior Sketchup 3D models, to study the geometry and to export basic 2D views as a start on construction drawings. For me, that's an easier first step in the transition to 3D. But I don't know anyone else who's even doing that.

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Viewports works on 2D - just select "project 2D objects". All my work IS in 3D - viewports make a huge difference. However even in 2D, it's hard to see how you wouldn't for example find a use for a croped view(detail) of a drawing with different a scale and class visibility...

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quote:

Originally posted by Skot:

I still have yet to see how veiwports can be a useful tool for what we do. Every demo of viewports that I have seen is done from a 3D model, already prepared ahead of time. We are strictly 2D in my office. I hear everybody raving about viewports being the end-all, be-all, but I just don't get it.

or to show details at different scales on the same sheet.

I use 3d to produce elevations. also to do what others are using sketchup for, why do a lot of work in one app then switch to another? What is missing in VW that you can do in SU?

I know there is heaps of stuff I don't use in VW, perhaps . . .

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