Potential new VW customer...need answers

[Paul S.]

Hello,

I?m a power Revit user and I?m considering a switch to Vectorworks 12 as I break out and start my own (small)company. Revit is too expensive for my needs and I think that Vectorworks may have a better set of tools for small-scale firms and projects. There is no Vectorworks 12 demo to my knowledge and I really need some solid answers about workflow and features that a sales person (by definition) will not be able to provide.

I have a whole list of topics and questions before I can make a decision. I?m interested in VW Designer because I want the broadest set of tools available.

Revit families vs. Vectorworks Symbols

1.If I want to create a totally custom window or door(i.e. custom arches with special mullions, etc.), how can I do that in VW if these options are not available in the dialog boxes? Would I create a 3d window symbol? And is there a way to get that symbol to cut holes in walls upon insertion? Similar logic would apply to skylights, niches, etc. Can you join inserted 3d symbols with AEC objects?

2.One nice thing about the RT family structure is that if I do create a custom 3d or 2d object (window, door, lamp, etc)...if I reimport that family object into a file it will automatically update all existing definitions that carry the same name. This is great because if I have a project with 10 different types of custom arches...as design progresses I can reimport the object repeatedly with more detail (without changing tags)...this will automatically update all 2nd and 3d views with more information without repositioning. Can VW symbols do the same thing?

3.How does one create and edit VW symbols? Do you create them within VW, and import them into other models? Can you create or define a symbol from within a larger file (and save out to a library?).

Synchronicity, AEC Objects + 3d modeling tools

1.If I have an AEC object like a wall, roof or floor, can I model a conventional 3d object (like solids or nurbs) and add or subtract from those AEC objects? Can I change the profile of a wall or punch a hole in a roof? Can I then go back and re-edit those cuts if the design changes?

2.Usually in Revit you can select off existing geometry to create custom 3d objects. Lets say I cut the profile of a wall so that it has a curvy profile. In VW, can I select that curvy edge and create a coping? Or is that a multi-step modeling process?

3.AEC stairs. Revit has a great stair tool in which everything is customizable. Same is true for ramps. I know VW 12 has a new stair tool as well. Can I create curvy, random, or completely customized stairs using the VW 12 tools? Can you create custom boundaries and custom risers for the stairs? Revit can do this. Are there such thing as railing objects?

Workflow with other programs

1.Has anyone tried the V12 *.3ds export using textured, or colored Vectorworks Architectural models? How does it work? Do the normals come out OK? This is absolutely key for me because Vue D'espirit is my main rendering application. Revit only allows you to export models using *.dwg format, and conveniently for Autodesk...the only program that will open this file format properly (with materials) is 3dsMax/Viz. That means if you want high end rendering you must purchase one of these programs, costing an additional $2000-4000, and further complicating your workflow. I really need VW to export to a common 3d file format correctly with textures so I can seemlessly use VUE. Many applications claim to do this but do not do it correctly...effectively annihilating my workflow. Has anyone tested this feature out?

Stability/performance

1.All credit to Revit...that is an amazingly stable system. When catostrophic file problems do happen (rare), there are numerous built-in features that allow you reclaim your work. How is VW 12 in this respect?

2. How is VW performance overall on Windows?

I appreciate ANY help you can give me. Feel free to e-mail me personally about it. Thanks!

Paul S.

[Larry B.]

Paul,

I am almost certain that Nemetschek still has a very generous policy of sending a complete Vectorworks 12 Designer/Renderworks package, the full version, including manuals and CD,s for a 90 day evaluation. The user can try it with their own drawing files, programs, computer hardware, printers, plotters etc. and if you are not completly satisfied, the package can be returned for a "no questions asked" refund. It is really hard to beat an offer like that if you are seriously considering Vectorworks 12, 18 months of support is also included, at least it was.

Larry

[Paul S.]

Larry,

I will definitely check it out.

Paul S.

[Don Wood - Architect]

Larry

There are also VW 12 movies somewhere on their web site for downloading

Don

[Guest]

Paul,

Please call my sales department toll free so we can discuss your needs. 888-646-4223

Best regards,

Michael Bendler

[ 02-27-2006, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Mike Bendler ]

[Robert Anderson]

Paul, anyone who asks such obviously knowledgeable questions deserves some answers! So let me try and directly answer some of your questions:

quote:

---

There is no Vectorworks 12 demo to my knowledge and I really need some solid answers about workflow and features that a sales person (by definition) will not be able to provide.

---

There is a VW demo, but even better you can also buy VW (including all the training materials) with a 90 day money-back guarantee, so you can try it without risk.

quote:

---

If I want to create a totally custom window or door(i.e. custom arches with special mullions, etc.), how can I do that in VW if these options are not available in the dialog boxes? Would I create a 3d window symbol?

---

Yes. Assuming you can't get our Window plug-in object (PIO) to give you the configuration you want, you can just assemble geometry to give you the results you want. We call our symbols "hybrid" in that you can assemble 2D components (lines, rectangles, polylines, etc.) and 3D components (extrusions, lofts, NURBS, etc.) into a single "container" that you can tune for both 2D (plan view) and 3D (model views) in a single object.

quote:

---

And is there a way to get that symbol to cut holes in walls upon insertion? Similar logic would apply to skylights, niches, etc. Can you join inserted 3d symbols with AEC objects?

---

Yes. Our wall objects and roof objects have certain automatic behaviors. If you insert a symbol by clicking it onto a wall, it becomes "owned" by that wall and automatically creates a 2D and 3D gap in the wall. You can insert symbols into walls (creating "gaps" as necessary) or onto the surfaces of walls. Likewise, you can "insert" 3D window or skylight symbols into roofs that then "own" those skylights, etc.

quote:

---

..if I do create a custom 3d or 2d object (window, door, lamp, etc)...if I reimport that family object into a file it will automatically update all existing definitions that carry the same name. This is great because if I have a project with 10 different types of custom arches...as design progresses I can reimport the object repeatedly with more detail (without changing tags)...this will automatically update all 2nd and 3d views with more information without repositioning. Can VW symbols do the same thing?

---

Yes. Although our workflow and our terminology differ somewhat. Our symbols are kept in a non-drawn part of the VectorWorks file called the "Symbol library". Every VW file has a local "library" repository where the "msster symbols" (we call them "symbol definitions") for that file are kept. These symbol definitions can be edited, changed, detail added, etc. at any time and the results are applied throughout the project instantly.

quote:

---

How does one create and edit VW symbols? Do you create them within VW, and import them into other models?

---

Yes. Precisely.

quote:

---

Can you create or define a symbol from within a larger file (and save out to a library?).

---

Since all files contain libraries, you can use any file from a library, or import from any previous project file.

quote:

---

If I have an AEC object like a wall, roof or floor, can I model a conventional 3d object (like solids or nurbs) and add or subtract from those AEC objects?

---

There are some limits to this, but basically yes.

quote:

---

Can I change the profile of a wall or punch a hole in a roof? Can I then go back and re-edit those cuts if the design changes?

---

Yes and yes. We have a nice "fit walls" procedure that will automatically fit and embed walls to 3D geometry top and bottom. Holes in roofs can be any shape.

quote:

---

Lets say I cut the profile of a wall so that it has a curvy profile. In VW, can I select that curvy edge and create a coping? Or is that a multi-step modeling process?

---

VectorWorks does have "extract" tools that will extract a NURBS curve or surface from existing geometry, but right now with walls that is a multi-step modeling process. Although not tortuous.

quote:

---

Can I create curvy, random, or completely customized stairs using the VW 12 tools?

---

The VW Stairs work by allowing you to assemble stair components: flights, winders, platforms, etc. in any shape and combination. In VW, you specify the floors (i.e. layers) you want to connect (which specifies the required vertical travel) and then begin building your stair sequence.

quote:

---

Can you create custom boundaries and custom risers for the stairs?

---

I don't think so (if I'm understanding what you mean here).

quote:

---

Are there such thing as railing objects?

---

Yes, and rails and balusters are automatically created as part of the stairs as well.

quote:

---

Has anyone tried the V12 *.3ds export using textured, or colored Vectorworks Architectural models? How does it work? Do the normals come out OK? This is absolutely key for me because Vue D'espirit is my main rendering application. Revit only allows you to export models using *.dwg format...

---

I can't speak to the details of the 3DS export, but I'd strongly recommend you spend the additional 400 bucks and get the RenderWorks plugin. Not only is it fully integrated (meaning no exports or other complicated workflow to get your renderings), but it has artistic (handdrawn) effects as well as full texture mapping, raytracing, and radiosity (as well as a really nice collection of textures).

quote:

---

Stability...How is VW 12 in this respect?

---

I think most users would say that VW has been pretty stable since version 10, although I welcome any comments or corroboration from others reading this post. We have an auto-save and auto-backup feature that means you won't lose work.

quote:

---

How is VW performance overall on Windows?

---

VectorWorks is pretty snappy. I think I wouldn't operate it on a less-than-1.5 Ghz, 1GB RAM machine with a modern OS. (MacOS X or WinXP), though, especially if you're doing much rendering.

[Paul S.]

Robert,

Thanks the detailed reply. That fact that you are a VP and directly replying to my message is a great sign for Vectorworks, at least as important in my mind as any feature the software has.

You've knocked off about 90% of my concerns.

I thought I'd clarify my point about the Revit stair. In Revit, you draw your stair in a view using boundary lines (basically the sides of the stair), and risers (which are lines which connect, usually perpendicularly, to the boundaries). There are certain automated ways of drawing these lines, but most importantly you can draw a totally free-form stair if you follow the basic rules. So I can for example delete all the lines in my stair, then draw a bunch of free form boundaries and risers. The end result will be a totally custom, curvy stair in which landings, sides and railing, and risers can take on almost any geometry you want. Does VW have that capability? If not its not a deal killer per se, but perhaps a wishlist item. I have found those those stair features in Revit to be pretty good. On a related note, the railings in Revit are customizable as well...where you can create railing styles which consist of family elements in a certain pattern (like for example custom rails and balusters). Its a bit quirky sometimes, but also helpful.

However what appeals to me most about Vectorworks other than the price/performance, is the extensive array of 3d modeling tools. If I run into trouble or into an inflexible spot in the software...I can always directly model the element I want. That basic logic has always been limited in the competition, including in Revit.

I will definitely be interested in the Designer product with Renderworks. Thanks for the valuable info.

Paul Schuyler

Architect

[michael john williams]

Also you can also fall back onto this site to sort out your problems - its great and i never about it before purchase and certainly know of no other as good for CAD programmes.