Cable tool fool

[MattyB]

Hi All,

 

Can someone tell me if the cable tool is able to break my cables into their stock parts... Ie I draw a cable of 100m, I have in my stock lengths 30,15,8,4,2m lengths, I press calculate parts.... but then have to populate the parts myself? Is that right? So what's the point? 

Also, why can we not use the cable tool in 3D, rather than having to input the vertical distances manually, 

Failing the cables tool to be useful in any way, could it be possible to make the 3D poly tool calculate an open poly-lines total length?

 

Any thoughts welcome.

 

Cheers

Mat

Edited August 28, 2020 by MattyB
unique title

[Sam Jones]

To your first concern, how long is the total distance of the cable run?  The cable tool will attempt to find the shortest length, from the list of stock lengths, that will reach the end of the path you have drawn.  If the path is longer than the longest stock length, the tool will put the value of the longest stock length into part 1 and then try to find the shortest stock length that will reach to the end of the path.  Any time you put "0" in a part field, the tool will look for the shortest length that will reach the end of the path from that part.  Be sure you have the "Mark Connections" check box activated if you want to see where the different parts end.

 

To your second concern, drawing, and particularly editing 3D polylines or Nurbs, is a real pain in the ass.  it is easier to draw in 3D in enter the vertical distances which will then be taken into account in figuring the needed part lengths.  Drawing in 3D may become a feature of the tool in the future, but it will need some engineering help to make editing cable paths a realistic workflow.  Should you wish to use a polyline to calculate the paths total length, it should be possible.  I would suggest the liberal use of 3D loci to aid in constructing the path.  Knock yourself out.  If you want an example of a difficult path to draw in 3D so that the cable rides along each of the truss, let me know.

 

One of the big concerns for any cable tool is providing a way to control where the end of a cable part lands, which means there needs to be a way to control how much slack (unused cable) is in each part in order for the part to land at the correct location.  This is important when considering cable breaks that are needed to allow different portions of the rig to fly in and out.

 

There are still problems editing path parts with the current VW cable tool.  Many, definitely not all,  of the path editing concerns are addressed in the AutoPlot cable tools which are a continued development of the cable tools, but still is limited to 2D. 

[Sam Jones]

I forgot.  There is no easy way for the user to get the length of a 3D poly.  A vectorscript could be written to add the distances between vertices to arrive at a length, but that is the only way that I know of.  Perhaps I missed something.

[MattyB]

Thanks Sam,

 

I don't usually use the Cable tool, I just find it impossible, Its easier just to use excel, which is a shame as I love drawing and hate excel. I probably could pull my cabling calculators into the worksheet, and there must be a way of uploading that as a default in VW. 

As a confession, i had added an extra forward slash to my Stock lengths which was messing it up substantially.

But still some bug bears (and no doubt my fault)...

I cant duplicate a cable at an offset.

I cant save my cable preferences, like a symbol, so have to define the cables at every new drawing. I just want to put my cables in once and save as default. (maybe this can be done once, but I use many types of cables, be nice to choose from a drop down)

The fanout symbol covers the end connection info, and I can not seem to move either.

 

I can easily enough draw 3D poly-lines to represent cables on paths, but the perimeter info is missing, I would have thought this length would be easy to Calc(?)

 

When I need to seriously do load calcs, I use a programme from Creo-schematics whereby feeders, distro, multies, and jumpers are all connection savvy, so volt drop, phase loadings, line impedance etc are calculated and shown throughout the project, but its too overkill for my regular work of a few dozen soccas and a bunch of lights and truss, it would sure be nice if VW could do just a portion of that on a simple scale, but like most things with VW I find it frustratingly close to doing something but not quite fleshed out (like the cable tool) (rant over, at least for today)

 

I thank you for your quick response, I shall persevere 

 

Matty B

 

 

[Sam Jones]

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

I cant duplicate a cable at an offset.

I can using "Duplicate Array".  How are you trying to do it?

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

I cant save my cable preferences, like a symbol, so have to define the cables at every new drawing. I just want to put my cables in once and save as default. (maybe this can be done once, but I use many types of cables, be nice to choose from a drop down)

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.  Are your cables always the same length and run on the same path??  Do you want to save drop down choices?  This can be done in the plug in manager.  I can convert a cable instance into a red symbol which will preserve all the settings.  Those settings can be edited as defaults in the Plug-ins Manager.

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

I use many types of cables, be nice to choose from a drop down

There are many drop downs in the cable's OIP.  If you want to pick just one set up of all the drop downs, this can be done by saving an instance as a red symbol

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

can easily enough draw 3D poly-lines to represent cables on paths, but the perimeter info is missing, I would have thought this length would be easy to Calc(?)

Me to.  I'll write a script to compute the length of a 3D Poly.  If I can, I will do the same for a nurbs curve.  That doesn't help you now though, and it would be part of AutoPlot anyway.

 

It is unclear what you want from the cable tools.  Do you just want the cable path length?  Do you want the length of the parts?   Do you need to know how much slack is in each part? I could go on and on.  A task document describing what the cable tool(s) should do would cover many pages.  There are all the different aspects of computing parts, storing (possibly computing) their order. Distributing parts among looms and packing boxes.  Counting.  There are so many different counting needs.  Then there is the distribution of connection data.  what fixtures get plugged into which multis, using which jumpers.  Chaining fixtures and the maintenance of universes. On an On. So...

What do you need from a cable tool.  A polyline?

[MattyB]

Truly, a poly line. For a start!

A pathway from a distro, be it a touring rack, or a hard power socco 72 way HDD, trace the path from the floor, vertical to the 'Cats', left and right, then drop to the Truss. Its that simple.Dump that into a worksheet, and I can use the power of Excel to do the heavy lifting.

 

Thanks

Matty

[MattyB]

Thanks Sam,

 

I hastily responded above, out of frustration, but you have brought a good measure of questions to the table in your earlier notes.

I often have multiple cables heading to the 'Grid' from a ''rack' or Hdd, along a similar path, (from dimmer room to Grid *Cats) so i want to pump out a bunch of parallel cables to the same destination, I will set up that pathway as a single cable and then x(30?) with an offset, once overhead i can extend those cables (poly-lines) to their various deployment places, (join tool). But I don't want to draw each one,  Duplicate array, yes, let me explore that.Thanks.

Second, I use the usual variety of cables that we use, I  would like to....  say OK mains Powerlok 150mm, choose it and start drawing, like a symbol. I haven't looked into whether I can save a cable pref as a symbol, but that's interezting, fingers crossed.

Third, I know that you are here to support people like me, of your own volition, Amazing! but i cant see why VW doesnt offer this as a tool for developers. The frustration is as a non -coder , that this is not everyday. I start a cable (poly line) (dimmer shed west) i go east (Value x), then I go south (value y) then i go to the Perms (value Z) then left and right, then drop down to the truss (  +x+y+z).

Third, I'll sponsor you in that endeavour.

.

Matty

Edited August 28, 2020 by MattyB
Z has to be added to Z both ways

[Sam Jones]

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

Third, I know that you are here to support people like me, of your own volition, Amazing! but i cant see why VW doesnt offer this as a tool for developers. The frustration is as a non -coder , that this is not everyday. I start a cable (poly line) (dimmer shed west) i go east (Value x), then I go south (value y) then i go to the Perms (value Z) then left and right, then drop down to the truss (  +x+y+z).

Third, I'll sponsor you in that endeavour

While adding the X,Y,Z differentials might work for you (I need to think about that), it is definitely not an acceptable polyline length algorithm. At a minimum, diagonals and curves would screw you up.

 

Here's something that might work for you RIGHT AWAY.

 

Select the NURBS Curve tool.  Then select the interpolation mode button in the mode bar

 

In the resulting dialog, input "1" .

 

you can now draw a NURBS curve with corner vertices, and when you are done, you can read the length in the OIP.

 

You will get none of the data functionality of a cable tool,  but you will get the 3D length of what you drew.

 

 

 

 

[Sam Jones]

PS:

I haven't brought up the problem of cable swags and how to account for them.  In the example you described everything is pretty easy compared to a complicated, or even not so complicated, truss rig where the location of cable connections is critical.  I don't know if you care about hanging soca connections on your run to the grid.

 

[MattyB]

Thanks Sam,

I hadn't thought of using Nurds curves, to be fair I don't have any experience with them, Im a more straight line kinda Guy. I won't hang soccas on their connectors ever (I say ever, but when looming cherry pickers and big cranes, sometimes there are connectors in the air but a quick loop and a texas whip, cable to cable, takes the strain off, Ive even run chains so the cables can be zip-tied at the prescribed half/metre interval. so i get what you are saying). My usual workload is that I draw poly-lines, from distro to lamp, plonk that info into excel, add the vertical portions, press go, and I get the cable schedules, lengths, numbers off, etc, then I might go back and draw the poly in 3D for any unusual routing, just as a reminder to me later of why I went that way. I then draw a schematic that represents the system segment and do my electrical calcs from it, and later use it as a cheat sheet for the electrical testing and confirmation. As a workflow its got a few whirlpools, I was hoping that the cable tool would pick up just a little slack, to smooth any portion would be a help, but every time I visit the cable tool I get frustrated that it wasn't made for me specifically (c'mon VW, Im paying £800 a year, surely I can have my own tools, named after me?)

Thanks Sam, you've given me plenty to explore.

 

Matty

[Sam Jones]

6 hours ago, MattyB said:

I hadn't thought of using Nurds curves, to be fair I don't have any experience with them, Im a more straight line kinda Guy.

 

Everyone is.  Setting the Curve Degree to "1" is critical, and it will turn the NURBS path into the equivalent of a polyline with corner vertices.  It sounds like you don't want a cable tool to do more than that, so I wouldn't bother with any current cable tool.

 

Drawing a cable path along the following S curve of truss, with the appropriate cable breaks, is more problematic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MattyB]

Hi Sam,

It's a neat trick, I don't even have to redraw the Poly's, just convert them to Nurds...Thanks

I do want more from the cable tool, ideally I want to be able to connect the whole system and do system reports, much like Creo, it may be possible now Connect-cad is onboard. NA do have a MEP programme, but again it's overkill, I just want something that will show that my volt drops are within range, and that my soccas are not too long for earth impedance/pfc.

I was having great success with the Cable tool this morning, I am able to set most of the defaults in Plug-in manager so the cables I like are first up, I can also save cables as symbols which are then editable as PIO, so that was going great, until I tried to resize the drops labels which broke VW and Ive spent the last hour trying to get it back running from TM. Customising the PIO must make a Plist in my user folder, took ages to try and root it out.... I blame you of course, for giving me the encouragement, if there is something I have learned after 35 years in lighting it is, confess your sins, no matter how diabolical, then blame someone else.

 

Thanks and Cheers

 

Matty

[MattyB]

I rarely have to go truss to truss, I can see that as adding an extra challenge, if I don't have Perm Cats in the right places I usually just build temporary ones (as long as the building has height and tonnage available).

[Mark Aceto]

@MattyB if you're looking to super-charge (pardon the pun) the stock cable tools, check out http://www.autoplotvw.com. It's a mere $35 to purchase, and $25 to upgrade, and the developer is very responsive (as you know).

[MattyB]

Thanks Mark,

Good advise.