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Michal Zarzecki

Hardscape - Texture Problem

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Hi all,

I recently, in a new project I created a number of Hardscape instances with textures. Unfortunately, I experience mixed results - with some textures being rendered/ displayed correctly whilst most looking smudged. See what I mean below. Can anyone point me to settings which control rendering of textures within Hardscapes?

 

 

Screenshot 2020-07-25 at 17.41.48.png

Screenshot 2020-07-25 at 17.42.45.png

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Maybe it’s related to the aligned Hardscape texture issues described in this thread?

 

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Are these multiple stacked hardscape? Or how are you getting the different components.

 

It actually looks like a texture mapping problem to me. Try setting there texture mapping to Perimeter instead of Plane and you might get what you want.

 

image.thumb.png.4a91fd6d3191206148930ce90b232ba3.png

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Select the Hardscape and go to the Render tab of the OIP.

 

If the texture is by Class, you might have to edit the class. If it is by object you can edit it in the OIP.

 

Under Part at the top There are two parts that you can assigned different classes: Overall and Main Slab Texture.

 

You can't set the texture mapping for overall, but if you change the Part to Main Slab Texture, you should get a Map Type in OIP and scale and other settings that might help you get what you want.

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@Pat Stanford, I must be doing something wrong. Texture Mapping is still disabled and now every plane is smeared. How come in some files I don't have this problem at all?

 

Perhaps someone would help me with the workflow.

I have all components assigned to classes and textures set by class. Is that a good way to do it, to control the appearance from one location (class settings)?

 

Screenshot 2020-07-25 at 20.39.28.png

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@Michal Zarzecki in regards to using "by class" for the texture assignments...

 

I tried that method at first having come from an AutoCAD background thinking I would change the class attributes to change everything referencing that class in the document.  However, Vectorworks style based system gives you a different level of control and I directly edit textures in the hardscape style definition now.  This gives me the ability to have the same hardscape style on different classes with one place (the style) to edit them.  Seemed faster and easier that way since I'm usually doing other things to the hardscape via the OIP or hardscape editor anyways.  I avoid having to leave the hardscape editor to change a texture via class attributes that way. Not sure what the best way is, but that seems to work for me.

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Posted (edited)

Here's the default texture behavior at creation using a standard VWX hardscape style 😞

1-mainslab-default.thumb.png.237330a76f2d16a0160bb54945031fc7.png

 

Here is what it looks like if you change the mapping to Plane in the OIP.

2-mainslab-plane.thumb.png.fe2bf66e44e366154c8919359f5647fc.png

 

Autoalign plane does the trick for everything but the cut stone paver edge LOL.

3-mainslab-autoalign.thumb.png.307666659901e773c3fdbdf38be65726.png

 

I think this is VWX special way of driving us crazy, here it is changed back to Default mapping after all of the above changes were made.

 

614065479_ScreenShot2020-07-25at4_21_25PM.thumb.png.3ffaaf693ae03c779e5059054c30a1f8.png

Edited by jeff prince
added last image
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@jeff prince, thank you too for trying to help. 

 

I did read the advice in your post, which @rDesign referred to. @Pat Stanford recommended the same here

4 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

Under Part at the top There are two parts that you can assigned different classes: Overall and Main Slab Texture.

As shown in my screenshot here, I changed the Render settings to Main Slab Texture with Class Texture option and it didn't enable altering the Map Type option (you can see it is still greyed as Plane).

 

4 hours ago, Michal Zarzecki said:

Screenshot 2020-07-25 at 20.39.28.png

 

54 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

I directly edit textures in the hardscape style definition

Do you mean you edit textures in the Slab Style that defines all components within a given Hardscape? To my experience and understanding of advice given elsewhere in the Forum, Hardscape do not have styles, like Plant Objects, so Changing the definition of a given Hardscape in the Resource Manager won't actually change anything in the instances already existing in the model. I wish the Hardscape settings could be retrieved from the RM whilst editing the instance. It says Active Settings - how is that helpful? 

118832232_Screenshot2020-07-26at01_12_15.thumb.png.b69acef27f440b84864cdc09cd1259b5.png

This is another level of complexity in VW, where Hardscape has its settings and when used in Slab mode, the slab has components which are controlled by yet another style. At least the Slab style can easily be replaced.

 

Equally to Hardscape, Planting Areas do not really have styles either and cannot be retrieved from the RM. I was advised to use eye dropper to copy settings between existing PA object in a model and a new one. I find this behaviour quite inconsistent in VW. Why Hardscapes and PA's cannot be defined by style and retrieved from the RM in a similar way Slabs are? When I discussed that before, I used Adobe Illustrator's Graphic Styles as an example. One can change the GS in Appearance tab and update the GS definition, which will make all objects that use this GS update its appearance. Nice, easy and intuitive.

 

Have you got similar reflections about this, or it's just so hard for me to get used to the VW logic?

 

 

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Yes, when I said hardscape "styles", they are technically slab styles within the hardscape definition.

I created a file with all of the hardscape "styles" I use for projects, even texture variations.  With the method I use, it does not matter what layer or texture you set an object to, it gets its characteristics from the slab/hardscape style.  This allows for hardscapes to exist on classes without regard to graphic effects.  More importantly, you can change the visual and structural style of the hardscape object in one click.  Should you need to change the texture of a style, you do that by editing the main slab components and changing the textures there.  It's the fastest way in my opinion, I would love to know if there's a better way.  In terms of the mapping issue, sometimes just clicking the hardscape settings button will restore a missing texture.  Ask me how long that drove me crazy 🙂

 

 

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@Michal Zarzecki Hey Michal, you can save hardscape configurations by clicking the button below "hardscape settings".

This saves it for your use in the drop down menu of the hardscape tool or in the resource manager.  Play around with all this, it will get easier.

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@jeff prince, thanks for that. I have all my Hardscapes saved in the RM via Save Hardscape button. You made me realise that saving the settings from within the Hardscape instance is a different thing. It's interesting and frustrating equally 🤦‍♂️. I will start using this. It would be good though, if this drop down menu was synced with the RM.

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7 hours ago, jeff prince said:

With the method I use, it does not matter what layer or texture you set an object to, it gets its characteristics from the slab/hardscape style.

I use the slab styles too, but I have all components assigned to classes which control their appearance in section. I do it this way, because Hardscapes or surfaces tend to use the same components in their buildup, such as sand, aggregate, concrete etc. Therefore, in different slab styles the same component is defined by the same class, e.g. sand.

In my Hardscape settings, I use main area texture and edge texture by class too, to get them controllable in viewports. So for example, when I use a hatch set up in the Hardscape and the background fill set by class, I can control if I want the graphics to be illustrative, with textures, at conceptual stage, or simplified for technical output. It seems to work for me so far. What I struggle with is those unpredictable visualisation issues, such as that mapping problem. I often have problems with plants not being generated or changes in their style not being synced in the drawing. 

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@Michal Zarzecki I use the default class assignments for the sectional buildups of the slabs in the way you described... it's how VWX behaves out of the box.  I was focused on the way I texture the main finish of the hardscape.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

5 hours ago, Michal Zarzecki said:

You made me realise that saving the settings from within the Hardscape instance is a different thing.

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about.  How is it different?

 

5 hours ago, Michal Zarzecki said:

I will start using this. It would be good though, if this drop down menu was synced with the RM.

 

The dropdown menu of the hardscape tool is synced with the RM, it's fundamental to how it works.

 

1740126779_ScreenShot2020-07-26at8_17_08AM.thumb.png.60a5443f8a4efbc414a27cd0bd017889.png

 

If you click on the dropdown menu on the left side of hardscape tool, this is what you see, a filtered RM view looking for hardscapes.  It's fast.

1709936940_ScreenShot2020-07-26at8_17_51AM.thumb.png.186186dad36f669e7f341d088e23e05e.png

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@jeff prince, it seems we are not on the same page 😅.

This drop down you refer to works when you are drawing a new Hardscape from scratch and want to use a saved one. I am more interested in using saved settings to change existing Hardscape. So far, I only realised you can drag a Hardscape from RM and and drop it to an instance in your drawing.

 

However, when you select a Hardscape in a drawing and go to Hardscape Settings in the OIP, on top of the window there is a drop down menu which says "Active Settings". Unless, you save the settings in this window, next to the drop down menu, you cannot access any settings kept in the RM. This is what I was referring to.

1192040504_Screenshot2020-07-26at18_40_37.thumb.png.6f4d8d409c142fd05f5ed8536a2e88f3.png

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@Michal Zarzecki Ah, I see 🙂  I don't use the dropdown feature you have shown in the way you want to.  If I'm changing an existing hardscape's settings, I'm doing it in the OIP and using slab styles.  Drag and Drop application of "Symbol/Plug-In" styles is dependent on having that style configured exactly as desired for the target object.  It has all the settings in it, so you can accidentally change settings such as the Configuration from say a path to a boundary, destroy border settings, etc.  Editing the hardscape in the OIP will not do that, it's more precise for editing IMHO.  I suppose drag and drop would be okay for boundary configurations, I would still exercise caution... especially in regards to border configurations.

 

I think Vectorworks could do a better job refining this notion of 'hardscape styles" and defining the workflow.  It's confusing by design at the moment.  I've probably spent over 40 hours doing R&D on my workflow, reviewing the various tutorials, and looking at posts here on the forum before adopting my methods.  I think that is a ludicrous amount of time invested on something that should be easy.   I don't know if my methods are the best way, but it seems to work for me.  I'm always interested in learning about better methods though.

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@Michal Zarzecki I just noticed another reason not to use drag and drop... If you are using hardscapes with a slab modifier type, those get reset to whatever the drag and drop style is configured to do.  Same thing for the eyedropper tool if "plug in style" is active in that tool's config.   I'm sure most of us work on projects where we want to change a material for various reasons but would like to preserve any model related decisions that have been made.  Someone who is accustom to drag and drop or eyedroppers in other programs could easily assume they are simply swapping materials in Vectorworks when they could be doing some destructive editing unknowingly.  The program doesn't warn you or give you the option to keep your slab configuration when editing in this fashion.  That just seems like bad interface design to me, requiring users to have deep understanding of the program to make simple changes without creating other problems.  Another reason to use the OIP for editing IMHO.

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Hi guys,

 

I am closely following your conversation, hoping to get correct answer to hardscape texture issues too. 😉

Thanks @Michal Zarzecki for bringing in this subject and @jeff prince for great effort to help.

 

I spent good chunk of time (some days if not weeek) early this year to figure out new hardscape object (new at least for VW Architect 2020) and learn sufficiently when and which variation of hardscape settings is suitable...with focus on correct texture mapping.

Even though english is not my native language and this fact is causing me some difficulties in terms of terminology I've tried every combination possible to achieve correct texture (having same issues as you @Michal Zarzecki) mapping mainly on aligned slab types (and their modification) of hardscape.

I am too using styles, so I was wishing to achieve results using styles and their components attributes controlled by classes. 

But no success et the end.

 

Eventually for final presentation I ended up 'Unstyling' Slab styled hardscape objects which was quick fix for textures but far far from satisfying as I broke control of my components attributes using classes.

 

Following bug fixes that occured in SP4, there were few for hardscape i have a hope that it is all fixed by now.

File that I created and produce before SP and play with it little after upgrade unfortunately wasn't showing any correction. But maybe I have to recreate those hardscape objects in order to fully take effect of latest. That is my experience with other objects in vw, that it wont heal itself automatically.

I will soon do another round of hardscaping lesson soon so I look forward to positive outcome. Will be happy to share new information with you.

 

Good luck anyway, hope you can find answer soon.

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Posted (edited)

@drelARCH don’t burden yourself too much thinking your process is wrong... Vectorworks maps it’s own built in hardscape styles incorrectly at creation sometimes.  It doesn’t matter if the textures are by class, by component, standard slab, or aligned  slab in my experience.  That example I posted above was using a Vectorworks provided hardscape in the default modes.  It’s not a matter of the slab style or converting to unstyled, it seems to be a problem in the program itself.  Just yesterday I observed the texture mapping behaving incorrectly on an unmodified standard Vectorworks slab style at creation.  Your English is excellent by the way 🙂

Edited by jeff prince
spelling error

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Posted (edited)

I recommend playing Beastie Boy's Sabotage while watching this video 🙂

 

Note, I rebooted my computer, started Vectorworks, and recorded the entire hardscape creation process which demonstrates the texture mapping issue occuring on a very simple hardscape using default settings and default slab styles that came with the software.    Also, you can see how "fixing" an offending hardscape can be accomplished.  Seems like a software bug and not user error in my opinion.  Your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Edited by jeff prince

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Guys,

I am glad I started this thread as this appears to be a hot topic and not my lack of experience with the program. I do appreciate your insights into your workflows and preferences - it is helpful and inspiring to see how others work and overcome issues.

 

In this post, I would like to bring some other issues I keep coming across with the Hardscape tool.

 

1. Resetting Joint Patterns

It seems that Joint Pattern settings in my paving Hardscape keeps resetting. Whenever I change something in the Hardscape, the JP goes back to square one - border joints at 1 and main area at 1000x1000. I waste a lot of time trying to set it back to what I want it to be. I don't actually know what makes it reset.

 

2. Wrong texture

Another thing I can't control is texture generation in 3D. I have two objects of the same Hardscape, but one of them does not show the right texture for the main area. Everything is set to the same presets, spare for the border which are different for both Hardscapes.

 

3. Border thickness does not react to settings

When I create a new Hardscape based on a preset/symbol saved in the RM, I can't change its border thickness (depth) - it just stays at the same value, whatever I do. I have the border set to unstyled - does that matter or may be the reason?

 

Have you experienced any of these problems before? Any thoughts or hints?

 

Regards.

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@Michal Zarzecki I'm glad you started it to, we are like a little support group suffering together 🙂

 

1. Yes, this happens all the time.  For me the joint spacing resets to an infinitely small setting that makes it look black in plan view.  I don't know what makes it reset either.

 

2. Post a file containing the objects, it's hard to say what's going on.  Sometimes you have another object floating on top of your hardscape that can create this illusion, as in the case of 'create object from shapes' and not selecting 'delete source object'.

 

3. I use defined slab styles for main areas and borders to control thickness, so my thickness settings are in those slab styles, not the Border Thickenss setting in the OIP (which inherits the overall thickness from the total buildup in the slab style).  You can select a defined slab style and convert it to 'unstyled'.  Once you do that, you can edit the border slab components to get the thickness you desire without updating the source style and affecting other hardscapes that may use the source style.  You can then save that modified style for use in other areas if needed.

 

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@jeff prince,

 

Thanks for a prompt response - as always. Much appreciated!

 

1. That sucks! 🤦‍♂️ This is what happens to me too - border joint patter returns to 1, which renders it black. @Adam Robinson/ @Tamsin Slatter - any thoughts from you and M.O.T.H.E.R? Err, sorry ALIEN fan kink - any thoughts from VW?

2. It was a bug. I replaced the slab style with something else and returned to the original style - this made it good/ the same as the other one. Again - annoying!

3. It appeared that when I unstyled it, I only removed the label or link to a style. The slab kept the components from the original slab, hence the thickness was set as "by component". Silly me - I looked everywhere, but not in the most obvious place. Just so many settings!

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@Michal Zarzecki I know that this happens after I change the slab style for a border.  Initially, it retains its border joint settings with this new slab style.  However, if I click on the "draw border" checkbox in the OIP to remove it and then click on it again to add the border back in, the crazy spacing happens.  It changes to a fraction of an inch that does not correspond to the active hardscape preferences settings, so who knows where it gets the value or why it changes.

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