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A McDonell

ENERGOS 2020

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I want some space by space energy demand control- for instance the boiler  to not be heating some circulation and storage spaces... how would  i achieve this?

 

Cheers

Andy

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On 4/19/2020 at 7:31 AM, A McDonell said:

why doesnt curtain wall have any energos settings? this seems like a major problem

Edit curtain wall style insertion options tab has Include in Energos Calculations greyed out. This is because Energos settings are located under Frame and Panel settings and type of frame and glazing can be set from a customisable list with parameters.

Thing to bear in mind is that for frames this needs to be set for vertical, horizontal and all boundary frames individually.

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On 4/19/2020 at 3:52 AM, A McDonell said:

I want some space by space energy demand control- for instance the boiler  to not be heating some circulation and storage spaces... how would  i achieve this?

You can exclude individual Spaces by unticking Use in Edit Spaces List. This will update the Total Relevant Floor Area

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@Luka Stefanovic 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I agree, that it is a useful to evaluate the information when you are designing, however, These calculations can be reiterated just by using worksheets as well. Much of the information that energos shows goes through an additional plugin object that doesn't necessarily work the parametric aspects of the model itself. This is something I ran into when trying to get gross wall areas and net wall areas from curtainwalls and regular walls. I think that is a severe limitation because you cannot extract certain information from energos like exterior wall surface area, interior wall surface area, etc... What energos does instead it takes a one time extraction of the plugin objects and copies that information into a the label plugin object making it much more cumbersome to verify the information that it calculates. It would be easier to extract the information in realtime just like a worksheet does from any plugin object, that way any information energos uses can be extracted into custom worksheets. Just some food for thought 🙂

 

Regarding much of the information from space objects that A Mcdonal mentioned can be cleverly manipulated without having to enter energos information, but rather extracting information from a separate record and combining it with space objects with plumbing or heating records. If information matches, it calculates demand temperatures for those particular areas. It is something I plan on integrating in the future of my workflows. But as it stands, Energos still doesn't display the surface area of wall and curtainwall objects correctly, no does it display the areas for corner windows correctly (this is a bug that was submitted) that prohibit accurate results. As a reference, I used grosswallarea_net versus Component net area and it had a difference of 6 - 8% fenestration  area percentage with the same geometry using windows, corner windows and curtainwalls as fenestration objects. 6-8% can be a very large difference between heat loss / gain, and consequentially, a substantial impact on mechanical system requirements.

Edited by Samuel Derenboim

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Hi @Samuel Derenboim

 

I agree that you could run these calculations in worksheets too, however this would be a very manual process and would require a lot of setting up by someone who knows the subject very well. Benefit of having a tool like Energos is it becomes an automated and streamlined process that can be used by Architect who are not necessarily experts in setting up the formulas themselves. 

On 4/22/2020 at 8:48 PM, Samuel Derenboim said:

you cannot extract certain information from energos like exterior wall surface area, interior wall surface area

I think you're looking at the wrong place here. I wouldn't try to extract these values from Energos, I would use worksheets. Output of Energos is things like Heating loads, Energy demands, Overheating etc. Sure, it uses things like Exterior/Interior wall surface area to get to those outputs, but they are a means to a different end. It's not a limitation, even more so as you can get those surface areas in a report. 

On 4/22/2020 at 8:48 PM, Samuel Derenboim said:

I used grosswallarea_net versus Component net area and it had a difference of 6 - 8%

WALLAREA_GROSS and COMPONENTAREA(n) will give different results because the first one will give the area of the wall based on the wall centerline and wall height, and the other will display the surface area for Component n. In an example of a 300mm thick, 10m long, 3m tall wall with two corner joins with other 300mm walls WALLAREA_GROSS will be 29.1m2 but the COMPONENTAREA for outer component (red in image below) is 30m2

Screenshot 2020-04-24 at 18.29.31.png 

 

WALLAREA_NET will instead return WALLAREA_GROSS minus any recesses or openings. 

 

I will be looking more into wall surface areas and how they are calculated in Vectorworks and in Energos, including corner windows, curtain walls and  There are a number of functions which you can use to extract different quantities using Worksheets, it's a matter of choosing a right one to get to the corrrect numbers! Hope this helps and clarifies the issue.

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 Thank you @Luka Stefanovic , I agree with most of what you say, doing energy calculations, one has to be extremely tedious and meticulous with the conveyed information in the worksheet. If you want to work for only the client - this would be enough. If you need to present this information to local building department and zoning ordinance (in my case - New York) the information has to be verifiable (this ultimately tests the tools legitimacy to the building department)

 

Since Energos only provides summed areas and no charts or worksheets to sum up wall UA averages between every cardinal axis,I've since needed to use the information directly from plugin objects to display in a worksheet, rather than using energos directly. I do not know if it is a requirement in other states, but in New York, i can definitely attest to the fact that tabular approaches to spaces, wall areas and U values are required. In fact, it is something i am working on as we speak. This only came up now because I am working on a project that attempts to implement the same rules I've used below. My solution to the problem is a separate matter.

 

After having tested energos first hand i wasn't able to extract several things. (look through the earlier message board to see some of the attachments i've provided as a resource...otherwise i can send them to you directly if you wish). The things spoken about in this thread that cannot be extracted directly was the biggest area of concern.

 

1. Exterior surface area (Like Energos does) - you've commented on this, and you are accurate in your description. If you have another way of extracting it, would love to hear it.

 

2. Orientation of the walls in reference to Cardinal Axis (like Energos does). As far as I know, and @Nikolay Zhelyazkov  mentioned, only the energos label tool can do it. If you can extract it without the tool, would love to utilize that feature as well!

 

3. Length of exterior surface area (inside wall length and outside wall length cannot be obtained, only the center line of the wall). Can be deduced if you divide surface area by the grosswallheight. but it goes back to problem 1 above.

 

3a. There is a trick you can use in order to calculate pure exterior wall surface area. By using an additional component in the wall, you can make the component thickness .001 inches or something similar. That way when you calculate ComponentArea in this case, it will return the area of that component (net area at least), and length can be deduced from it as well. Problem is, using the component area trick - only works on solid walls - it does not work on curtain walls.

 

4. Since all wall lengths are calculated from the center of the wall, any walls connected to other walls (L connection) must add wall thickness in order to get the pure exterior surface. Full wall thickness is added to a wall connected on both sides, half wall thickness is added to walls connected to only one side. Unfortunately, there is no function in worksheets that can be inserted to check for walls joined in L mode, nor is it possible to check if it is connected on only one side or on both sides of the wall. Had there been such a worksheet function, this problem can possibly be solved using a conditional =if() statement for both Lengths, and by extension, net wall surface area for both curtain walls and solid walls.

 

5. Corner windows are also measured differently, they can end up having a different measured length from the outside than the computed length provided in the PIO. (needs to be dimensionally verifiable for the building department). This is the same center line problem as the walls.

 

6. In order to get information that's taken from energos, record information can be extracted from the label tool. This includes cardinal axis and exterior surface area. (problem 2) It is possible to extract but it is modifiable - not like parameters PIO like walls, windows, doors, etc... can be computed through functions like area, length, etc... that end up being greyed out. Additionally, energos creates a separate record for every object that in the document. If every object has a separate record, it would be impossible to document or extract properly or conveniently. This was the basis and the crux of my criticism.

 

Thank you again for looking into this. As far as I know, very few, if not, no other software company listens to the user posts and concerns. Your team has addressed many concerns in the past of this forums wishes, and I am personally grateful for it.

Edited by Samuel Derenboim
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On 4/22/2020 at 11:16 PM, Luka Stefanovic said:

You can exclude individual Spaces by unticking Use in Edit Spaces List. This will update the Total Relevant Floor Area

this then changes the glazing to floor and exterior wall/ roof slab/ Sqm to occupied volume ratios... making the result inaccurate. Changes of surface area to volume have the biggest effect on the Energos results from my experience.  

 

What I need to get close to an accurate result is a way to change the climate controlled space calculations, effecting the heating/cooling demand calculations made by Energos. BUT maintain the the building envelope to relevant floor area to keep the passive heating and cooling calculations accurate. 

 

For example in my school building only half the relevant floor area is actively climate controlled by the building services. Circulation spaces, storage spaces, toilets etc. are not controlled. Therefore the heating demand results are not reflecting the actual demand (as audited).

 

By giving Spaces Energos controls... for instance checkboxes for whether they should be actively included in building services calculations, a target ambient cooling and heating temperature etc... it would become instantly more powerful... for instance enrgos data for a single space could be called out and then iteratively worked on. dat visualisation could tell us the weak points in a design etc.... the resolution of the tool would go through the roof.  

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Hi all

 

A colleague informed me of this thread; I was meant to be at the Design Summit presenting on this topic; we've been testing and using Energos for a while and the seminar is now online virtually (hosted from my attic)

 

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/scorm/player.php?a=349&currentorg=articulate_rise&scoid=698

 

I also put together an outline of notes - I need to do a bit of updating on these but they're still quite useful ( I wrote them prior to preparation of seninar):

 

https://www.markstephensarchitects.com/shop/vectorworks-energos-training-notes/

 

My conclusion is that it works pretty well; for Passivhaus verification you're still going to need PHPP but it's great to make design changes to 'move' the design into the green area of bar chart

 

Mark

 

 

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Thanks @Mark Stephens for pitching in on the thread and sharing your thoughts on Energos.

 

It's a very good seminar, I would definitely recommend taking some time out to watch it, there is much to learn on Passivhaus design and Energos.

 

Luka

 

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I understand Energos role relative to Passiv Haus.  The report function also lists report options for LEED and BREEAM. What is the value of these LEED and BREEAM reports?  
 

For instance, LEED’s energy performance requirements are based on the ASHRAE 90.1 defined baseline model and calculation methods.  Is this part of the Energos analysis?

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Thanks @Mark Stephens for posting that; I've just watched the video.

 

This is the first time I've got around to sitting down and understanding at a basic level what it does and how it works.

 

I can see an immediate problem in applying it to most things I design, which is that if I understand correctly it's reliant on using objects created by the slab, wall, roof and door window tools. But my real world experience of vectorworks is that most of these tools are no use for anything but early design stages. I might start out using the door/window tool but as things progress many of these get swapped out for custom modelled elements that are a closer match to the thing I actually want. Even walls, perhaps most of my building model will use wall objects but often there are bits that are made up of solid-modelled elements because they can't be generated by the wall tool. I hardly ever use the roof tool; it's way too limited to create what I want. I do use roof faces a bit, and it looks like Energos can recognise these.

 

So my first question... either for @Luka Stefanovic or @Mark Stephens or anyone else: is it a feasible workflow, to have my "real model" exist somewhat independently of my "energos model"? By this I mean that perhaps the energos model sits on its own layer, and I can copy-and paste things into it from the real model, but where I have a custom-modelled window in my real model, I place a "near-enough" equivalent, produced from the window tool, into the energos model. And where I have some kind of complicated roof geometry I make a near-enough simplified version out of roof faces to exist in the energos model. For example.

 

Some more specific questions:

1) I was interested in the bit about it being able to do u-value estimates for windows, based on me telling it the glass spec, frame type, etc. Does this take into account the number of framing members and their sizing or does it just provide a generic U-value for a window with overall size of X width and Y height? In other words, where the glazing U value is better than the framing U value, will I get a better result from a window that it just one perimeter frame and a big frame of glass, compared to a similar sized window which is subdivided into multiple casements and which has a different frame:glazing ratio?

 

2)If I have a "space" which has a non horizontal ceiling, and/or a stepped floor level, can it cope with that, or do I have to give it an extruded form with approximately the same volume as the real space?

 

3)In the example in the video, where the roof is a pitched one with hipped ends... does it assume the insulation layer is at a flat, horizontal ceiling plane around eaves level or does it assume it follows the pitch of the roof - ie with  a "warm" loft space? Or can this be defined in settings?

 

Aside from these questions I'd echo the concern in some previous comments about the extent to which its output shows its workings - this is important if they are to be used to support building control submissions (UK perspective here) but I'd also feel more confident in them if I could see how they are arrived at, to satisfy myself that it wasn't making any wrong assumptions that I did not realise about.

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Hi @line-weight

 

Luka may help more on this but below are a few comments,/answers

 

*The workflow is up to you, the seminar goes through what I think is ideal but feel free to improvise

 

* Q1 Multiple mullions (muntins) are poorer thermally - the less the better

 

* Q2 Average out the volume in the block

 

Q3 - unsure 

 

I wouldn't use this for Building Regulation submission - SAP only for this

 

Mark

 

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16 hours ago, architectmark said:

Hi @line-weight

 

Luka may help more on this but below are a few comments,/answers

 

*The workflow is up to you, the seminar goes through what I think is ideal but feel free to improvise

 

* Q1 Multiple mullions (muntins) are poorer thermally - the less the better

 

* Q2 Average out the volume in the block

 

Q3 - unsure 

 

I wouldn't use this for Building Regulation submission - SAP only for this

 

Mark

 

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

On Q1 - yes, I understand that multiple mullions are poorer - my question was whether Energos' calculation for the window takes this into account - in other words will it give me a worse U value for a window with multiple mullions than it will for one of the same overall size with fewer mullions.

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Hi @line-weight 

On the subject of workflows, I'd echo Mark and say it's up to you to work however you feel is best for your projects, there is no perfect one. 

You can add custom modelled geometry to Energos calculations - have a look at this thread :

You can also use Symbol as Window object definition, add custom modelled geometry to Walls using Wall Projection etc...

 

Q1 - Energos does take that into account in the calculation. You can test that by adding muntins or mullions to a Window and seeing the U-Value change. Multiple muntins/mullions are not necessarily poorer, it depends on the performance of the frame. Try choosing from defaults a Passivhaus frame and metal with no thermal break and see the difference.

Q2 - Spaces don't need to have cuboidal shape. Under AEC/Space Planning there is a command to Fit Top/Bottom of Space to Objects and it will take the shape of a Slab, 3D poly or a NURBS curve. It will then report a correct volume based on what you modelled

Q3 - That depends on how you build your model - Energos won't assume anything you don't tell it. You can model an insulated ceiling that is included in the calculations and assign Boundary Type as Slab at Unheated Attic Space Above.

 

Have a look at the webinar I did recently, there are some explanations in there too:

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/scorm/player.php?a=351&currentorg=articulate_rise&scoid=702

 

Finally, for Building Regulation, I agree with Mark -Energos is not intended as a replacement for SAP or other paid for tools that do Energy Performance Certification (certification being the key word here). I think if accepted for what it is, a very useful and in-depth energy performance evaluation tool to accompany your architectural design process from the very beginning, then it has a real value to Architects and gives them power to make informed design decisions at every step in that process do they can create truly sustainable and energy efficient architecture. 

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Thanks for the replies @Luka Stefanovic.

 

I'm particularly interested in the U value calculations for windows, because this is something that is actually often very difficult to get out of window suppliers, so frequently I am trying to make a judgement on the best arrangement without proper information. So it could be a useful design tool for me - of course, assuming that I have confidence that the calculations it is doing are realistic. I'll take a close look at it some time.

 

I'll also try having a look at that webinar.

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@line-weight you can see and edit the parameters such as SHGC, Thermal Bridge for glazing edges, Air leakage etc in Frame and Glazing settings list under Energos tab of Door and Window Styles. This is what the U-Value calculations are based on

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@Samuel Derenboim 

it seems like you try to calculate the exact wall areas outside of the energos tool. the energy calculations are being done in the energos, though, so the 'external' calculations don't really matter in the energy calculations. i wonder how the nyc authorities accept those quantity reports?

 

i use the energos tool as 'designed energy calculations' which are required by the authorities for the building permit projects, but here in poland there's an another type of energy calculations for the usage permit. the latter one is defined by legislation and has a certain 4-page look with a special graphic display that can be obtained only in external sofwares for energy calculations for the polish market.

 

On 6/17/2020 at 5:51 PM, line-weight said:

Some more specific questions:

1) I was interested in the bit about it being able to do u-value estimates for windows, based on me telling it the glass spec, frame type, etc. Does this take into account the number of framing members and their sizing or does it just provide a generic U-value for a window with overall size of X width and Y height? In other words, where the glazing U value is better than the framing U value, will I get a better result from a window that it just one perimeter frame and a big frame of glass, compared to a similar sized window which is subdivided into multiple casements and which has a different frame:glazing ratio?

 

the window producers provide the necessary data (separately for the frame, the glazing, and for the whole item), but in the the end the u-values are being (might be) typed in the window parameters manually, so you can shape the output by yourself.

 

Edited by gester

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Gester, thats interesting. I know that you are regulated by a different code in Europe (could be something like PASIVHAUS). Do those 4 sheets include calculations, areas, and visual summaries of the building? I'm sure there are performance approaches and prescriptive approaches to energy compliance / performance. I know here in America, the IBC (international building code) shows 2 different requirements that allows for flexible wall design based on a performance method, and a typical wall design based on a prescriptive method. Which one does the Polish legislature require from you?

Edited by Samuel Derenboim

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@Samuel Derenboim 

yeah, the polish certification document for the usage permit is formally standardised.

 

- the first page is the overall information of the building with the graphic display of its energy performance (enclosed is some older version before the tightening of the energy performance demand - the change is in the scope spread on the graphic ribbon - in this case the building doesn't comply with the requirements). the software can handle dwg imports, but not ifc models, so the calculations take approx. 90-95% of the creation time (a pretty cumbersome task, especially calculating walls and openings, depending on geographic directions), the rest is the adjustment of the installation systems. energy calculations are similar for all energy certification standards, what matters is the overall result, regarding particular requirements.

 

- second page is the description of the installation systems

 

- third page is the calculations with improvement recommendations

 

- the last page is the guides and notes - usually left as it is.

 

the certificate is valid for 10 years, and the creator is liable for any claims within this period. there's also a possibility to buy insurance for this scope, along with the professional designer's insurance.

 

is it somehow similar in the u.s.a.?

hth,

rob

certificate1.png

certificate2.png

certificate3.png

certificate4.png

Edited by gester

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I think you are spot on there @gester 

On 7/1/2020 at 8:05 PM, gester said:

use the energos tool as 'designed energy calculations'

Energos really is a designed energy evaluation tool that taps into the architectural design process. It's not intended for energy certification and there are other software, often mandated, doing that job. Benefit of something like Energos is that you know where you stand before that certification process because you can check the building performance and how design changes affect overall results.

Thanks for sharing the energy certificate document, very interesting to see the format.

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@Luka Stefanovic the Energos results range list specifically lists options of viewing results for LEED and BREEAM and other standards in addition to Passiv Haus. What is the value of a LEED or BREEAM results analysis?  I think that this is where some of the confusion comes from.  

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To be perfectly honest @jmanganelli, I'm not sure. I'm not very familiar with either of the two standards, only PassivHaus. I don't know the requirements of LEED reports, it may be that there is no such value like the ones Energos results produce to compare against in those standards. We have set about to find out this with a case study one of my colleagues at Vectorworks is doing and will share those findings.

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