VectorWorks 12 Live Sections

[michael john williams]

Not mush different from 11.5.

'not automatically' immediately strikes me as either you can not do it or it is not easy and takes a long time. This certainly does not mean 'making construction drawings easily' as stated in the V12 press. Also if you use polygons that does that not make the sections 'live'?

Sounds like more of a presentation tool rather than 'live' sections 'making construction drawings easily'

I suggest NNA are jumping the gun and 12 is not ready for release yet.

[islandmon]

Sean, thanx for the tutorial ... it confirmed my first impression that "Live Sections" is basically a marketing misnomer. 'Live' implies functional and manipulatable as 'Live' 3D objects. Whereas what v12 offers is spendid and specific data manipulation of 'static' 2D sections in Viewports for presentation purposes not for interactive 3D design funtionality.

The ability to describe & edit the parameters of 2D sections is a major time-saving benefit but realistically should be called "Active Section Viewports" or just "Active Sectioning" not "Live Sections".

Live Sections will arrive some day in the distant future, and they will require significant resources to obtain.

Under the current techno-regime "Active Section Viewports" is as good as it can get.

[Robert Anderson]

I think it's fair to call the new capability "Live Sections".

A "section" is a form of drawing construction, one that cuts and removes part of a 3D object to view either the part cut, the remaining parts beyond the cut plane, or both. In this way, "Building cross-sections", "Wall sections", and "Interior elevations" are all common architectural names for drawings that are, at their root, "sections".

There seems to be a lot of discussion regarding the amount of construction detail that is in the sections. It's my opinion that what is being asked for here is -better object geometry-, not "live sections".

In VectorWorks Architect, you can, today, draw detailed floor assemblies (using thin slabs and the "Create Joists from Poly" command). You can likewise draw a detailed roof assembly with the Roof Framer. Everything you draw using these tools will show up, faithfully, in the "Live Sections".

You can't section geometry that doesn't exist.

So, to clarify this discussion, (and to focus future wishes), let's call a spade a spade. If I want better 3D wall geometry, then let's call it that. If I want framing integrated with the existing floor slabs or roof objects, then ask for that. But Live Sections are a fait accompli. (And I for one think Biplab and his team have done a hell of a job in implementing them!)

[ccroft]

It looks to me (so far) that this feature works as advertised. The sections are 'live' because they update to changes made in the model. It's a section VIEW of the model, not the model itself.

In the movie you will see that with the proper rendering mode selected, the kitchen clearly shows the shelves inside the upper cabinet. If you were to delete or move one, the change will be seen in the section. As Robert points out, how can it show detail that is not in the model? The lower cabinet PIO has no shelf, so you don't see one in the movie.

How can the viewport (to quote Islandmon in an earlier post) 'somehow know intuitively what the structural requirements are and the methodolgy used to represent them'?

In order to handle all the different ways that people might want to display section details would require a huge and unwieldy interface with dozens of parameters. I think it's best to let me create my details graphically and not from a menu of pre-determined options. Of course some of this will not be 'live', but I will wait until the design is approved and complete before adding detail required for manufacture.

Interior elevations that update from changes made in plan will elimate the leading source of error in my practice. This is also by far the most common inaccuracy I see in construction drawings that come to our shop from architects - elevations and sections that don't agree with the plan view. Objects that are impossible to build. How embarrassing!

We have been asking for sections that update from changes in the model for years.....and now we have them!

Charles

[Kevin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ccroft:

...We have been asking for sections that update from changes in the model for years.....and now we have them!

Charles

---

I think that many have lost sight of this. NNA has been asked by us for years to deliver this feature. At some point they had to make a decison to release, to us, their work in progress.

From the demo movie, it would appear that they have gone beyond simply releasing something that they could market as live sectioning. It has some nice features that leave me wondering, how did they do this.

I think we should remember that this is Version 1.0 of Live Sectioning. I am sure that there will be improvements over time.

For me, for now, I am happy that the day has come that NNA has delivered on my wish. I am sure that it took a lot of hard work by the software engineers to make this work. Thank you Biplab and your team.

[erictorola]

I think NNA did a wonderful job with 'live sections'. I don't see how - from the demo - that a first version could be any better. It seems to me that some posters have a different definition of what 'live' means.

NNA has provided sections that update when the geometry updates, or a live update. Some users seem to think that 'live' means that anything sectioned should look like a real world object, regardless that they did not model the object in a real world way. i.e. with textures on all surfaces, and all the 3D geometry required to make an object as close to real world as possible.

One future improvement could be to add more than just surface textures to objects. It would be to add a 'materials' parameter to objects. These would define what hatch or texture would show in a sectioned surface.

Just dreaming...

[mike m oz]

The Live Section implementation has actually exceeded my expectations on functionality and versatility. Well done NNA and thank you. I like it.

[ 10-22-2005, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: mike m oz ]

[Spunkmeyer]

There is always room for improvements and enhancements, but it does what it does do well. The fact that it works like the viewports is helpful. I look forward to being able to introduce it into my projects that are in Schematic Design and Design Development where possible.

[michael john williams]

I think it is a great presentation tool but the advertised 'making construction drawings easily' is not correct.

[michael john williams]

If NNA can make it work in Allplan why not in VW?

As a matter of interest I am not the only sceptical architect in the UK as illustrated in an extract from the RIBA web site ongoing discussion:

From: William J. Sutherland

Subject: Re(14): Vectorworks 12

To: IT & CAD

michael j. williams on 22 October 2005 at 09:35 +0000 wrote:

It is a great demo but still seems more of a presentation tool rather than a construction section.

It looked very neat - and I liked the way you could switch between different 'looks' - OpenGL, shade or just plain etc and the presenter even gave a tip on how to 'mellow' the lines beyond the section line.

To do real detailed section drawings is still I imagine easier when dealing with 2D elements rather than this sort of live 3D view - it's what I do in Allplan - I think Revit uses an approach whereby you can draw 2D on top of the 3D view as a sort of 'patch' which is rather clever.

In Allplan you can animate a section as well as view it as a drawing - i.e. show the section in the OpenGL animation window - which is quite fun - presumably you can do this sort of thing in VW as well.

William

[Ariel]

>If NNA can make it work in Allplan why not in VW?

Is this really a valid question? Just because Nemetschek bought Graphsoft, should we really expect some shared features between the two software packages? Following the same logic, does the latest version of Autocad have any Revit-like features as well?

Ariel

[alanmac]

Ariel

It's simply not worth entering into a dialog. In other forums we'd recognise this as a "troll" and in my experience it's best not to feed the trolls.

Alan

[ccroft]

"I think Revit uses an approach whereby you can draw 2D on top of the 3D view as a sort of 'patch' which is rather clever."

This is exactly how I intend to use live sections to get the detail I need.

[RubenH]

What does revit it's what vw does on standard viewports, and i think with sections viewports is the same.

[alanmac]

quote:

---

Originally posted by michael john williams:

If NNA can make it work in Allplan why not in VW?

As a matter of interest I am not the only sceptical architect in the UK as illustrated in an extract from the RIBA web site ongoing discussion:

From: William J. Sutherland

Subject: Re(14): Vectorworks 12

To: IT & CAD

michael j. williams on 22 October 2005 at 09:35 +0000 wrote:

It is a great demo but still seems more of a presentation tool rather than a construction section.

It looked very neat - and I liked the way you could switch between different 'looks' - OpenGL, shade or just plain etc and the presenter even gave a tip on how to 'mellow' the lines beyond the section line.

To do real detailed section drawings is still I imagine easier when dealing with 2D elements rather than this sort of live 3D view - it's what I do in Allplan - I think Revit uses an approach whereby you can draw 2D on top of the 3D view as a sort of 'patch' which is rather clever.

In Allplan you can animate a section as well as view it as a drawing - i.e. show the section in the OpenGL animation window - which is quite fun - presumably you can do this sort of thing in VW as well.

William

---

As far as I can interpret the quoted william person is in fact only pointing out the differences, noting this is how he works in Allplan, 2D detail over 3D, and appears not to be knocking or sceptical but praising VW saying like Revit its "clever"

So it does not appear like he's sceptical at all. Figure that one out ?

That's my interpretation, but I may be wrong - but at least I'll admit it.

Alan

[ 10-24-2005, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

[quigley]

Having just seen the demo I'll make the comments that I think this is a very good implementation of sectioning - far better than many of the MCAD applications available now. I also liked the interface changes in general.

As for the sectioning I see no problem with this from a production point of view. Create the model, create your desired sections, copy and p[ast the section viewports into new sheets, convert the viewports to lines, copy and paste back into design layers, scale up to the correct size, draw any additional production sectional details, create a viewport of this and overlay onto the live section in the same location, then hide the live one.

Or you could add the detailing in the viewport as an annotaton I suppose.

This is what I do to get quick elevations and existing sections - using the 3D side without the overhead of modelling every single detail.

If you keep the live section viewports on a different sheet layer you still retain the link to the model, so if you change the model you can see any sectional changes immediately and modify the lines accordingly.

The only missing feature I think is the ability to paste a viewport into a design layer as a reference and create "overlay detailing" as described above whilst maintaining the links. No doubt that will come soon...

[blimey]

kq,

I read somewhere earlier in the post that the section could easily be converted into 2d. so I guess the 2d can then be brought in the design layer for detailing. Or do you mean you'd like it automatized as a reference that would update by itself?

[michael john williams]

I have been called many things before but never a 'troll'!

Not too bad I suppose - Lord of the rings is a good book and film - and if somebody has to spoil the land of fantasty I do not mind doing it, as long as we get a better product for the world of reality.

[quigley]

quote:

---

Originally posted by lmt:

kq,

I read somewhere earlier in the post that the section could easily be converted into 2d. so I guess the 2d can then be brought in the design layer for detailing. Or do you mean you'd like it automatized as a reference that would update by itself?

---

Ideally automised but for the moment select the viewport (section/elevation/whatever), go Tool Menu>>convert to lines or convert copy to lines (to overlay the viewport with a copy).

Then copy the new group back into the design layers and scale up by the scale of the viewport, for example, if the viewport scale was 1:50, scale the group x50.

Obviously this totally buggers up any curves (making them segments) but it does provide a quick and easy way to use the automatically set views without having to go to the trouble of setting up layer links and so on.

What I would like to see though, in the sections (maybe 12.5, maybe 13) is the ability to pick up hatching in walls and plug in objects automatically.

Being able to add drafting detailing in the section viewport might work OK. I've not tried it yet, but until VW can associate lines and dimensions of viewport annotations to the geometry (as it can in design layers) I think most will stick to design layer editing.

[blimey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by KQ:

What I would like to see though, in the sections (maybe 12.5, maybe 13) is the ability to pick up hatching in walls and plug in objects automatically.

---

mmm... yeah I agree.

I'd like the hidden lines "removed" not "hidden".

[Christiaan]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Anderson:

In VectorWorks Architect, you can, today, draw detailed floor assemblies (using thin slabs and the "Create Joists from Poly" command). You can likewise draw a detailed roof assembly with the Roof Framer. Everything you draw using these tools will show up, faithfully, in the "Live Sections".

---

What about cavity walls?

[CipesDesign]

Be patient Chritiaan :-)

[michael john williams]

I think we have been patient.

For instance, the live section tool in 12 could easily have been developed into a more construction tool rather than just presentation before it was released. At the very least it could of shown cavities in walls, so that what you see in plan you see in section.

Also the promotional blurb I see from NNA and Computers Unlimited is that 12 has ?live? section tools and ?makes construction drawings more easily.? That would be great if it was true but I do not think it is true. I hope to be proved wrong. If I am right than I was quiet well prepared to wait until it does what it says on the can.

[Jonathan Pickup]

as well as showning live cavities in 3D it would be nice in 2D plan view to be able to turn off the non-structural wall components. It would make the wall styles more powerful.

[mike m oz]

Sorry to be pedantic but there is a need to change the terminology.

They are component parts of the wall not cavities. Cavities are nothing ie. empty space. Yes there are cavities in many walls, but the bits we want to see and represent are components of the wall like brickwork or timber stud framing.