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michael john williams

VW12

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In your case you may want to wait for the posting in these forums of all the eventual Bug Reports. Sit tight with the rest of us ; )

I like to wait for the Hot Shots to take their crack at it ... with the their State of The Art equipment ... yeah .. you know who you are ... I don't to name name here ... let them bleed ... he he he..

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Bugs? of course there'll be bugs: it is software after all! :-)

Upgrades? of course it's upgraded regularly:it is software after all! :-),

NOW:

congratulations to all at NNA for another significant improvement in the product!!!

Seeing the responsiveness of NNA to customer requests is always a pleasure, and I'd like to thank them for reaching some of the places I've wanted VW to get to.

That won't stop me from whingeing when things don't do what the're supposed to ;-D, but ,

THANKS AGAIN Team.

N.

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quote:

Originally posted by michael john williams:

I have had my VW architect and render works less than a year [4 months] and now version 12 comes out!

A bit annoying having to upgrade already.

Yes, but VW11 has been out for some time, a lot longer than your time in upgrading to it.

You don't "have" to upgrade you know, I'm still running VW10.5 happily at home, but looking closely at what this new "Designer" edition has to offer.

Alan

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Well done NNA - I am impressed with what VW 12 appears to be delivering.

The interface, modelling, plug-in and rendering improvements seem to address many of the recurrent issues and concerns raised in these forums.

The plug-in improvements seem particularly good and I trust that we have at last seen the back of the unfriendly component finishes being Style-1, Style-2 etc. This would have to be one of the most counter intuitive and frustrating aspects of the previous plug-ins.

[ 10-13-2005, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: mike m oz ]

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Looks very good. Too bad we have to wait half a year before it reaches the Netherlands. I would also like to see some more images with the new renderworks engine ie. Radiosity and the soft shadows etc. I can't seem to find them on the NNA site.

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Nemetschek, are there any features in VW 10 and 11 that have been removed from VW12? Software companies sometimes quietly remove or cripple features in newer versions of their software without announcing those changes. As I have VW Architect I am particularly interested in any 'backward' changes to that program.

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I agree with Peter van der Elst that there need to be more graphics.

For example in the Features section of LandMark there are no images in both of the following when there should be:

- You can create spectacular 2D illustrations.

- You can create high-end presentations.

Similarly in the Features section of RenderWorks there are no images in the following when there should be:

- You can create realistic renderings.

- You can create artistic renderings.

- You can add drama.

- You can take textures to a new level.

The adage "a picture is worth a thousand words" is very true in this instance. We need to see what you are saying. The words just don't do it.

I would also like to see more images of what the rendering and plug-ins can do. The Whats New in 12 flyer has just given us a flavour of what there is. We now want to know more of the detail and to see graphic examples of what can be done.

[ 10-13-2005, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: mike m oz ]

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I have no intention of upgrading yet! The problem is I was just about to get another 11.5 licence for another work station and frequent upgrades make this costly. Besides the words in the flyer do not do it for me yet but they say it is going to be more UK oritated. But I will wait and see what it all means.

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quote:

Originally posted by Peter van der Elst:

Looks very good. Too bad we have to wait half a year before it reaches the Netherlands. I would also like to see some more images with the new renderworks engine ie. Radiosity and the soft shadows etc. I can't seem to find them on the NNA site.

VectorWorks NL Pro is scheduled for 20/11/05 - one month after NNA starts shipping VW 12. The other versions (Architectuur, Interieur, Tuin etc.) are scheduled for 15/01/06. There's a preview of 12 at both the HUWA-Vandersanden seminar in the Netherlands (www.designexpress.be/HUWA/) and the ACF-show in Brussels (www.acf.be).

Best,

BaRa

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I cant wait to get my hands on this nice piece of ... software. It seems to be loaded with genuine improvements - thank you NNA.

As a product designer, I think the 'designer' package is not quite what I could wish for - I still miss an industry series software product, that specifically adresses my profession.

As you know, the devil is in the detail so I will probably soon be back with more complaints :-)

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In my brief look at the new features, nothing mentioned about multiprocessor or native 64 bit support. Is this still the case? The only place that I seem to benefit from multiprocessor support is during parts of final quality renderworks when I can see all processors being well utilised.

Also, what are the hardware requirements over and above those of 11.5?

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Very disappointed...

So many of our 'day-to-day issues in our office' have been completely overlooked. From reading the PDF it sounds like it is just bug-fixing for 11.5.

What about rotating the viewing plane in 2D? What about Spotlight integration for OSX? What about speeding up the 2D drawing experience rather than slowing it down by adding 3D features that I bet only 20% of professional users ever use?

B*llocks...

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Wow ... just read the v12 PDF ... have I died and gone to heaven.

What an amazing features list. I can't wait to dive in and start playing with them.

As a Mac User my only concern is what percentage of the app is still stuck on C++, Carbon and how much code is Obj-C with Cocoa APIs. Hopefully v12 will plug the majority of memory leakage issues. Quartz integration is finally here which will put this video processor to much better use !

All my work is 3D based so improvements are always welcome.

Thanks to all at NNA ... let's Roll.

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nicoloco, I'm sure you have some really valid issues, but to call this a bug-fix for 11.5 really is stretching it. Having now read the PDF I'm finding it difficult to convey to my boss just how much more productive I'm going to be with VW 12. My workmates are even laughing at me cos I'm so excited. Who would have ever thought of getting excited about a bunch of 0s and 1s.

The thing is I've often felt a little constrained by VW potential compared to VW reality, and the need to constantly employ workarounds. VW 12 goes a looong way to quelling this for me.

The developers team have clearly done a lot of work and I don't think it's stretching it to equate VW 12 to the likes of Mac OS 10.3/10.4. These system updates added many features but the main work was under the hood, laying the groundwork for what is to come; I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the outstanding issues you mention are just around the corner.

[ 10-13-2005, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Christiaan ]

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NNA have really covered a lot of ground here, reading their PDF. So many of the day-to-day issues in our office appear to have been resolved. Time will tell of course, but I'm definitely looking forward to working with 12. Well done NNA.

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Another question. Is this version ready for the transfer to Intel based macs? Is it already written as a "fat-binary"? Or do we have to purchase another copy of Vectorworks next year?

Regards,

Peter

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If it is a bug fix for 11.5 why did they not get it right the first time round? And therefore if it is a bug fix why is it not free? I doubt it will be bug free for long unless they have tested it more this time. I am perhaps the pessimist here, but I resent having to fork out a load of hard earned dosh every 6 to 12 months for an upgrade.

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quote:

I resent having to fork out a load of hard earned dosh every 6 to 12 months for an upgrade.

You don't. You don't have to at all.

Don't get me wrong, I have as big a problem with the capitalists milking their userbase as much as the next person. I'm just suggesting that arguments are far more powerful when they're realistic. Calling v12 a bug-fix for 11.5 just makes someone look like they'd moan about anything (and hence worth ignoring), no matter how valid their issue in the first instance.

[ 10-14-2005, 04:28 AM: Message edited by: Christiaan ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Christiaan:

quote:

I resent having to fork out a load of hard earned dosh every 6 to 12 months for an upgrade.

You don't. You don't
have
to at all.

Don't get me wrong, I have as big a problem with the capitalists milking their userbase as much as the next person. I'm just suggesting that arguments are far more powerful when they're realistic. Calling v12 a bug-fix for 11.5 just makes someone look like they'd moan about anything (and hence worth ignoring), no matter how valid their issue in the first instance.

well indeedy do!

In fact if we're discussing vendors' sales practices, we might like to consider Autodesk's policy of "monetising" (sic) their customers by making them pay regularly for the SAME software. (IE the "subscription" purchase).

good ol' capitalism relies on selling people more and more stuff: no "growth"=no company, is an underlying presumption here.

BUT, to suggest that the new release is a "bugfix" borders on.................. sheeesh!

Do you think that implementing Radiosity rendering was something they did one lazy afternoon? Do you think completely rebuilding the DTM module was an afterthought? What about implementing live sections (regardless of how "live" they are at the moment); hell, I reckon any one of us could have done that while brushing our teeth in the morning. Mere bug fixes.

Oh, and that's right;......wasn't there somethings or other new in 11.5 that no-one paid more for? and in 10.5 and, and, and...

Some readers might have noticed that I'm not unwilling about venting when things don't do what they're supposed to do; I hate it when I've been "promised" something and it doesn't work,

but getting software to work faultlessly is like doing ballet in a minefield wearing elephant boots.

and one thing you could not accuse the NNA team of is not trying to give us what we want. ........at a bloody good price.

Hard earned indeed.

[/end rant] ;-)

N.

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I guess its been a difficult week for some, and the only therapy is to dash of an email rubbishing VW.

In the haste to seek satifaction and a feeling of "getting back" at what nasty old fate has thrown at us this week we don't mind chucking in a few incorrect or provacative remarks, maybe in the hope we can continue on with this "debate" to further the therapy.

I suggest not rising to the bait of such remarks and think Christiaan hints at the best attitude to take.

I recall an old expression used to describe somebody I had the misfortune to work with some years ago "He's only really happy when he feels a depression coming on"

Have a good weekend.

Alan

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quote:

Originally posted by alanmac:

I guess its been a difficult week for some, and the only therapy is . . .

"He's only really happy when he feels a depression coming on"


Alan, I've never heard that before. Haven't had such a good chuckle this early in the morning in a 'coon's age. Maybe two! Levity is such good lubricant. Thanks.

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Some personal comments on issues raised above:

FREQUENCY OF UPGRADE

- VW 11 was released in April 2004 and was a pay for upgrade

- VW 11.5 was released earlier this year and was a free upgrade

- VW 12 will be released late October this year and is a pay for upgrade

There has been 18 months between the latest pay for upgrades. Both AutoCAD and ArchiCAD have annual upgrades which are substantially more expensive than VectorWorks upgrades.

UPGRADE POLICY

NNA allow you to skip an upgrade and only pay a small premium for doing so. Both AutoCAD and ArchiCAD make you pay the full price for every upgrade even if you don't take it.

AutoCAD go even further - if you fail to upgrade your licence it is retired after 3 years. This means you have to buy a complete new license when you do decide to upgrade. They are also now switching to a subscription program where you are required to pay a fixed amount every month.

BUGS IN PROGRAMS

No complex program is ever completely bug free - there are just too many permutations of operating systems, computers and other programs to make this possible. Add in users trying to do things they never anticipated and you have an idea of the impossibility of this.

No program provider deliberately lets bugs through - they go through an exhaustive process of Alpha and then Beta testing to hopefully pick most of them up. To guage how difficult this is look at how often both Apple and Microsoft have to issue patches to fix problems with their OS's. Each one of these can cause problems with the programs like VW. Sometimes NNA get caught out despite their best efforts.

Both ArchiCAD and AutoCAD have had disdastrous releases of their programs. Ask any old diehard AutoCAD user about release 13 and you will get a vehement venting of their spleen. Release 14 came early because of the 13 disaster. SketchUp 5 has not been without its problems from what I have read on its site and the Pushpullbar forum.

Many of the things which MJW claim are bugs are in fact things that are not possible with the program. Constructive suggestions and comments would be more beneficial and likely to get a response from NNA in new versions.

I have been a user since MiniCAD 4 some 12+ years ago. I have always eagerly awaited each release because they always brings program improvements and enhancements. NNA are very responsive to their user's comments and the popular wishlist items do get implemented. The ones I want aren't always but I am one voice.

FINAL COMMENTS

Back to the 11.5 upgrade - this was more than a bug fix - it included new features as each .5 upgrade has. It was free apart from a handling charge for the CD. I don't know of any other mainstream CAD program that does this.

NNA have retained their customer focus whereas the big boys main priority is making money for their shareholders through monetising their customers. This is the principle reason there is such a loyal VW user base. 400,000 people can't all have it wrong.

[ 10-14-2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: mike m oz ]

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