Georeferenced objects shifting between layers

[lisagravy]

As a follow on from my numerous posts about Georeferencing Settings - I thought I'd cracked this and rolled out a workflow, but am now having some pretty fundamental issues in my files which I need to resolve ASAP! Any help much appreciated.

 

I have a master file with document georeferencing switched on (British National Grid), and all layers set as georeferenced.

All my xref files have the same internal origin (close to the site) and user origin set to align with georeferencing system.

The geo image aligns perfectly with the site. All seems well.

 

However.

 

When I copy and paste in place the same object from one layer to another within the same drawing file - both layers having been georeferenced to the same georeferencing system in the same document - the position of the object shifts? It's very slight and barely noticeable, but measures around 19mm of a difference in position of the same object copy / paste in placed between the two layers. 

 

This is a huge issue for us - but I'm not sure if it's an issue with functionality, or just our workflow? Any help or advice gratefully received. 

[lisagravy]

See attached test file if anyone wants to take a look at what I mean? Try to copy / paste in place the rectangle from one layer to the other and check the positioning....

TEST FILE.vwx

[Tamsin Slatter]

I'm looking into this Lisa (and have been since you posted... I just forgot the crucial bit of letting you know...).

 

[lisagravy]

😂 Thanks @Tamsin Slatter really appreciate it! 

[Tamsin Slatter]

This is resolved in Service Pack 3, which is imminent...

[Tamsin Slatter]

Actually, I was a little hasty in that pronouncement. It seems that this IS an issue, and I will file a bug report immediately. I don't know that we can get this resolved in SP3 at this stage, but the good news is, there is workaround:

 

Here's the workflow I would suggest:

• Edit Vectorworks Preferences, and on the first tab, uncheck Offset Duplicates.
• Create the copies using CMD+D/CTRL+D (shortcut for Edit > Duplicate)
• The duplicates remain selected. 
• Change their design layer on the Object Info palette.

I hope that helps.

[Tamsin Slatter]

VB-168438 (internal reference).

[lisagravy]

Any ideas for a workaround for copy / paste in place between files? All I can think of is to copy with a reference point and then manually re-position.

[Tamsin Slatter]

The only thing I can suggest, off the cuff, is to use Layer Import Referencing and bring in the layer from the other file, then delete the reference, choosing the option to import. 

BUT, I haven't tested this and I am just running to a meeting... will test later.

[unearthed]

IDK if this is helpful as I'm on 2012 and just importing not referencing but I've just had an issue with a site which is approx 7km across and objects in supplied dxf would not scale correctly to my existing space. I had to go to 11 figures after decimal to get a perfect fit. I've noticed a lot of this sort of thing in VW over the last ~10 years, It feels like underlying code still in inches too, as many errors come out suggesting an imperial base.

[Tamsin Slatter]

10 hours ago, unearthed said:

IDK if this is helpful as I'm on 2012 and just importing not referencing but I've just had an issue with a site which is approx 7km across and objects in supplied dxf would not scale correctly to my existing space. I had to go to 11 figures after decimal to get a perfect fit. I've noticed a lot of this sort of thing in VW over the last ~10 years, It feels like underlying code still in inches too, as many errors come out suggesting an imperial base.

With 2012 the georeferencing was more limited. With any geometry that spans more than a 5KM radius, you will find that any CAD system struggles with floating point maths. For this reason, we recommend that you keep the geometry close to the internal origin and set the user coordinates to match the real world coordinates of the site. With 2012 this is not a straightforward process. Later versions of Vectorworks include options in the Tools > Origin > User Origin command to set the precise coordinates of the site over the internal origin. There is also a command under the Tools > Origin menu to Center the Drawing on the Internal Origin (while preserving the real world coordinates). This would help you enormously, but with 7KM that will potentially cause problems. 

[unearthed]

"With 2012 this is not a straightforward process" understatement.

Yes for bigger stuff I normally use sketchup (works reasonably well up to 80km or so and you have to do a kludge for Earth curvature) or QGIS if you need real accuracy.

 

[Tom W.]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:09 PM, Tamsin Slatter said:

The only thing I can suggest, off the cuff, is to use Layer Import Referencing and bring in the layer from the other file, then delete the reference, choosing the option to import. 

BUT, I haven't tested this and I am just running to a meeting... will test later.

Hi @Tamsin Slatter I am working with a georeferenced map + everything is set up correctly (user origin + internal origin). I want to import georeferenced geometry from another file. If I go down the Organization>Design Layers>New...>Import Design Layers route the geometry comes into the file way over at the user origin not at its correct georeferenced location close to the internal origin. But if I go down the layer import referencing route you suggest above it comes in at the right place.

I am quite happy doing it this way but I'm interested to know why it doesn't work the first way + if I'm doing something wrong.

Thanks

[lisagravy]

@Tom W. Is the geo-referenced geometry you're trying to import from another Vectorworks file? If so, that file needs to have the same geo-referencing settings, and particularly the exact same internal origin position as your current file. Also, if you click 'edit properties after creation' when you create your import layer, you can make sure the import layer is also set to be geo-referenced.

 

I have to admit I had to have a look at this method of import, as I've never actually used this workflow - usually I'm either importing from DWG, where I use File > Import... or I'm using Design Layer References (Draw Rectangle > View > Create Viewport > Select Source > External Document) to reference information in other Vectorworks files, without fully importing all the geometry.

 

It sounds like somewhere your import alignment is set to 'align with user origin' - but there doesn't seem to be the option that I can see to correct this via this import method. (You can however change the import alignment when importing from DWG.)

[Tom W.]

Hi @lisagravy thank you yes I was trying to import geometry from one georeferenced VW file into another - and guess what, I tried it again just now + it worked! So I must have done something stupid the first time: probably like you say neglected to check 'edit properties after creation' + set the imported layer to be georeferenced. I was just transferring some boundary lines I'd drawn on one OS map onto a larger map of the same area in another file.

 

I have been importing georeferenced DWGs successfully (following the excellent instructions you posted elsewhere I should add!) + referenced DLVPs too - so was a bit disconcerting when what should have been the simplest thing out of all these - copying geometry from one file to another - didn't work. Good - thank you

 

Good to know about the layer import referencing method as well