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A question for set designers - 2D or 3D?


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A question for those of you who work in set design for film and TV.

I am a C4D artist moving into film and TV and I need to learn Vectorworks. 

Can you tell me if the majority of draughts in VW are only required in 2D or are you required to model full 3D models for each set?

Thank you

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Hi Phil,

its not always straightforward and will depend on the type of project you are working on. Some projects are very vfx heavy and you would normally assume 2d and 3d would be required. Sometimes it is also down to the amount of time you have.There isn't always time to model when the workshops are shouting for drawings...

You should ideally be able to work freely in both areas and keep your approach versatile.

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I build everything as 2D/3D hybrid objects - so I get the full 3d model, but I have a solid 2D ground plan of each object that lives with the 3D.  So best of both worlds.

Yes - it takes more time to model everything, but think that all your elevations and sections can be made from that model, so you gain a lot of time back that way - especially for revisions.

 

Free tutorials here:  http://www.evanalexander.com/training - these tutorials are from the POV of a production designer.

 

e.

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1 hour ago, Lord A said:

Hi Phil,

its not always straightforward and will depend on the type of project you are working on. Some projects are very vfx heavy and you would normally assume 2d and 3d would be required. Sometimes it is also down to the amount of time you have.There isn't always time to model when the workshops are shouting for drawings...

You should ideally be able to work freely in both areas and keep your approach versatile.

Thank you Lord A, that makes perfect sense of course, time and money is king 🙏

 

4 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

I build everything as 2D/3D hybrid objects - so I get the full 3d model, but I have a solid 2D ground plan of each object that lives with the 3D.  So best of both worlds.

Yes - it takes more time to model everything, but think that all your elevations and sections can be made from that model, so you gain a lot of time back that way - especially for revisions.

 

Free tutorials here:  http://www.evanalexander.com/training - these tutorials are from the POV of a production designer.

 

e.

Thank you Evan, I did wonder whether something like that might be best. A great snippet of info there.
I'm still getting my head around VW - I'm assuming there's no way to tie the 2D ground plan to the 3D model ... meaning revs to the floorplan don't automatically update the 3D model...?

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1 hour ago, PhilDon said:

I'm assuming there's no way to tie the 2D ground plan to the 3D model ... meaning revs to the floorplan don't automatically update the 3D model...?

 

Sadly no - the 2D and the 3D are still separate pieces of geometry.  The Hybrid part just keeps the 2 locked together in position and only shows the 2D when in Top plan view and the 3D in all other views.  They are not parametrically linked.

 

You should take a look at Autohybrids through - these generate the 2D for you from the 3D and you can use classes to control the attributes of the 2D.  I'm too much of a control freak and like to control all of the 2D myself.  But worth looking up in the help files/you tube.

 

e.

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15 hours ago, EAlexander said:

 

Sadly no - the 2D and the 3D are still separate pieces of geometry.  The Hybrid part just keeps the 2 locked together in position and only shows the 2D when in Top plan view and the 3D in all other views.  They are not parametrically linked.

 

You should take a look at Autohybrids through - these generate the 2D for you from the 3D and you can use classes to control the attributes of the 2D.  I'm too much of a control freak and like to control all of the 2D myself.  But worth looking up in the help files/you tube.

 

e.

Thanks Evan, you've saved me a lot of research time and given me a defined direction. Truly grateful!
Very best

Phil

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In my workflow all objects are modeled in 3d and the 2d is generated via autohybrid inside symbols. This gives you great control over the look of the 2d objects and removes the disconnect between plan views and 3d views.  If it exists in the model, it exists in the plan.  The only drawback to this method is that the plan and model generate simultaneously, which is in opposition to old school tactics where the groundplan (and maybe elevation) exist for a while before a 3d view is created.  

 

The advantages are tremendous however.  There is no disconnect between the drafting and plans.  If the objects are updated in the model, they are updated in the plans.  

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11 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

In my workflow all objects are modeled in 3d and the 2d is generated via autohybrid inside symbols. This gives you great control over the look of the 2d objects and removes the disconnect between plan views and 3d views.  If it exists in the model, it exists in the plan.  The only drawback to this method is that the plan and model generate simultaneously, which is in opposition to old school tactics where the groundplan (and maybe elevation) exist for a while before a 3d view is created.  

 

The advantages are tremendous however.  There is no disconnect between the drafting and plans.  If the objects are updated in the model, they are updated in the plans.  

This sounds promising Grant ... I will investigate this.

I'm just doing lots of experimenting here - working out where I can use my existing skills and where I just have to abandon them.

Currently I'm not too chuffed with VW drawing capabilities, I much prefer illustrator (whilst not as precise, but there are means). So I am experimenting with exporting AI files as DXF and using these inside VW.

I note you also use C4D, which is my go-to 3D application - do you use C4D in conjunction with VW? If so how?

Many thanks

Phil

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VW has a fairly good toolset for 2d drawing, nothing that compares to Illustrator however.  It sounds like your workflow is to create 2d drafts from Illustrator?  

 

My workflow is to create orthogonal views from the 3d model pieces inside VW.  This is a compromise: I have less control over my style (I make a style from what VW can do) but I have a relationship between the 3d model and the drafting that is symbiotic.  And VW offers some pretty good control over lines and shading and all that.  See attached examples of plates that are views of the model.  You can create details, cut sections, add shading and textures etc.  I'm not drawing things so much as I am picking and choosing what parts of the model need to be seen, at what scale, and adding dimensions and notes.  

 

As far as working in C4D, the model will export pretty handily to C4d, plus lighting and textures and all that.  Once inside Cinema I usually finesse the lighting (there is more control) and finesse textures (there is more control).  Additional props and entourage can get added too, since Cinema just handles meshes a lot better than VW.  

 

If you wanted to do the reverse you could export your c4d file in pieces as an .obj or whatever else is supported, and create your sheets of drafting from that in VW.  It might be cumbersome and a little messy though.  VW has gotten a lot better at handling meshes and polygonal objects, but at the end of the day it is just happier with it's native geometry.  You might find the files get unwieldy and the rendering styles get glitchy.  

jordanKlepper.jpg

2.0-SECTION_2_7_2020.pdf

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On 2/13/2020 at 2:04 PM, grant_PD said:

VW has a fairly good toolset for 2d drawing, nothing that compares to Illustrator however.  It sounds like your workflow is to create 2d drafts from Illustrator?  

 

My workflow is to create orthogonal views from the 3d model pieces inside VW.  This is a compromise: I have less control over my style (I make a style from what VW can do) but I have a relationship between the 3d model and the drafting that is symbiotic.  And VW offers some pretty good control over lines and shading and all that.  See attached examples of plates that are views of the model.  You can create details, cut sections, add shading and textures etc.  I'm not drawing things so much as I am picking and choosing what parts of the model need to be seen, at what scale, and adding dimensions and notes.  

 

As far as working in C4D, the model will export pretty handily to C4d, plus lighting and textures and all that.  Once inside Cinema I usually finesse the lighting (there is more control) and finesse textures (there is more control).  Additional props and entourage can get added too, since Cinema just handles meshes a lot better than VW.  

 

If you wanted to do the reverse you could export your c4d file in pieces as an .obj or whatever else is supported, and create your sheets of drafting from that in VW.  It might be cumbersome and a little messy though.  VW has gotten a lot better at handling meshes and polygonal objects, but at the end of the day it is just happier with it's native geometry.  You might find the files get unwieldy and the rendering styles get glitchy.  

jordanKlepper.jpg

2.0-SECTION_2_7_2020.pdf 2.23 MB · 2 downloads

Hi Grant,

So sorry for not replying sooner, I had to go an pick up a brief and got distracted.

Thank you so much for all of this info.

So my requirement is pretty much the same as yours, I need to produce draughtwork for set builders' instructions as well as 3D models to aid visualisation.

Obviously I am not so familiar or slick with VW yet, but getting better.

Agreed VW 2D drawing is not as intuitive as AI.

Neither do the VW 3D capabilities come anywhere near Cinema 4D ...

On both counts I am rather upset 😞

For C4D I have produced fairly accurate draughts by using the Sketch and toon module, C4D allows slicing as well, so it's really good in that respect. You can alter the thickness of the lines too which is an advantage.

But VW is king with its Autohybrids which I have been experimenting with - honestly it is a bit clonky and slow, even on my superduper PC. But I really like that it can slice above and below and display dotted/dashed lines etc.

Also dimensioning which you simply cannot do in C4D - whilst AI you can use the Hotdoor plug in.

Importing C4D files into VW is possible but I think - as you rightly say - it's causing some issues.

You can also import AI files in VW, but it seems that native VW drawn geometry is best.

I admit I have been doing a fair bit of cursing and there are a number of things that seem really convoluted, however I expect that a number of these are just because I am a newbie. 

I hope that soon I will be singing its praises as a true convert - I'm going to need to incorporate it into my workflow if I am to stand any chance of working in the industry.

Very best

Phil


 

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Hi Phil,

You'll find the message board has a lot of helpful and supportive folks on it, both to listen to the rants and give advice.  

 

Workflow is key, and it really is all about finding the best one for you.  Unfortunately there is no "all in one" solution that I know of, although we are getting closer.  With new rendering addons like Lumion, which can live sync to your CAD model, one can see the future where you can be drafting and looking at your model rendered in real time.  But I don't think we are there just yet.  

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2 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

Hi Phil,

You'll find the message board has a lot of helpful and supportive folks on it, both to listen to the rants and give advice.  

 

Workflow is key, and it really is all about finding the best one for you.  Unfortunately there is no "all in one" solution that I know of, although we are getting closer.  With new rendering addons like Lumion, which can live sync to your CAD model, one can see the future where you can be drafting and looking at your model rendered in real time.  But I don't think we are there just yet.  

Well I tried AutoCAD and it sucks!

I have found some things I really like in VW, so I will focus on that and look to the future.

 

Many thanks!

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6 hours ago, PhilDon said:

Well I tried AutoCAD and it sucks!

@PhilDon  AutoCad sucks, 😂,  agreed 👍 , as for using AI for 2d drafting, why ? You can do everything you need, both 3D perspectives and 2D technical drawings in VW, I also use Rhino3d and do exactly the same in that software too, no need to go backwards and forwards between softwares. Yes for higher end renders you may want to go into another package, but you can do some really good design work just inside VW. 

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7 hours ago, PhilDon said:

Well I tried AutoCAD and it sucks!

 

That is not unlikely for anyone with an artistic approach.

 

7 hours ago, PhilDon said:

I have found some things I really like in VW

 

Yes, there is so much about imperfection and feature loaded to criticize.

But other Apps aren't perfect either and from the ease of use of VW in basic tasks,

especially for creative, non technical thinking people, there are some things

done right in VW.

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11 hours ago, milezee said:

@PhilDon  AutoCad sucks, 😂,  agreed 👍 , as for using AI for 2d drafting, why ? You can do everything you need, both 3D perspectives and 2D technical drawings in VW, I also use Rhino3d and do exactly the same in that software too, no need to go backwards and forwards between softwares. Yes for higher end renders you may want to go into another package, but you can do some really good design work just inside VW. 

 

In the end, the preferred tools are often a question of what you are used to, and where you started working.

 

In my case, I come from the CAD world working with 3D CAD since 1985, and MiniCAD since 1987. My conclusions are therefore:

 

- Don't like AutoCAD style programs.

 

- AI is pretty rubbish compared to VW for 2D CAD work and really sucks as DXF/DWG import export. Never use it. Occasionally use Affinity Designer though for file conversions.

 

- Of all the rendering programs passing through the office,  I NEVER used them for modeling, just rendering (for example Strata, Cinema, Cheetah, Artlantis, Keyshot, etc). Today I  

   mostly use Keyshot, Artlantis and Renderworks for rendering (Depending on what it's used for as they are good at different things).  

 

- VW for 2D drafting, and 3D solid modeling. 

 

- TouchCAD for precise free form 3D shaping, model building, unfolding of panels, and image unfolding for photo realistic 3D model building. 

 

- Photoshop for image processing.

 

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12 hours ago, milezee said:

@PhilDon  AutoCad sucks, 😂,  agreed 👍 , as for using AI for 2d drafting, why ? You can do everything you need, both 3D perspectives and 2D technical drawings in VW, I also use Rhino3d and do exactly the same in that software too, no need to go backwards and forwards between softwares. Yes for higher end renders you may want to go into another package, but you can do some really good design work just inside VW. 

My answer for using AI is of course that I have been using it for 30 years - old dog - new tricks 😂
Yes I need to get to grips with Rhino too ...

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12 hours ago, zoomer said:

 

That is not unlikely for anyone with an artistic approach.

 

 

Yes, there is so much about imperfection and feature loaded to criticize.

But other Apps aren't perfect either and from the ease of use of VW in basic tasks,

especially for creative, non technical thinking people, there are some things

done right in VW.

I can do technical ... just takes the use of a hammer and lots of late nights!

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38 minutes ago, Claes Lundstrom said:

 

In the end, the preferred tools are often a question of what you are used to, and where you started working.

 

In my case, I come from the CAD world working with 3D CAD since 1985, and MiniCAD since 1987. My conclusions are therefore:

 

- Don't like AutoCAD style programs.

 

- AI is pretty rubbish compared to VW for 2D CAD work and really sucks as DXF/DWG import export. Never use it. Occasionally use Affinity Designer though for file conversions.

 

- Of all the rendering programs passing through the office,  I NEVER used them for modeling, just rendering (for example Strata, Cinema, Cheetah, Artlantis, Keyshot, etc). Today I  

   mostly use Keyshot, Artlantis and Renderworks for rendering (Depending on what it's used for as they are good at different things).  

 

- VW for 2D drafting, and 3D solid modeling. 

 

- TouchCAD for precise free form 3D shaping, model building, unfolding of panels, and image unfolding for photo realistic 3D model building. 

 

- Photoshop for image processing.

 

You're absolutely right and I get frustrated because Vectorworks is nothing like Adobe Illustrator or Cinema 4D.

Illustrator has been going downlhill since CS3 I would say, it was better when it was simpler, I find that the need to add more and more features in order to keep the pennies rolling in has just spoiled it. But I still love it.

Cinema4D is actually great, it profoundly lacks quality boolean modelling functions that Rhino has, but for ease of use across all things 3D, it's an amazing one-stop tool - I am literally in pieces over the fact that I have to move to a more CAD based workflow. But there's no money or soul in animation any more, so I have to suck it up.

Forgive my incessant moaning ...

Thank you for your insights Claes - really helpful.

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1 minute ago, milezee said:

@PhilDon the Adobe subscription service is a massive waste of money for a lot of small businesses, have you looked at Affinity products ? Great pieces of software for a fraction of the cost, no subscription, you buy, you own, with great functionality 👍

 

 

I have them all, Designer, Photo and Publisher. All really good. Designer still misses DXF import /export, and fonts are sometimes imported ungracefully  if you don't have the exact fonts installed. PDF and EPS imports very well and in scale from VW. Surprisingly close to Adobes equivalents for a very competitive price and no subscriptions. Takes getting used to for Adobe die hards though. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, milezee said:

@PhilDon the Adobe subscription service is a massive waste of money for a lot of small businesses, have you looked at Affinity products ? Great pieces of software for a fraction of the cost, no subscription, you buy, you own, with great functionality 👍

 

I have been meaning to check them out Milezee!

However at the moment I still use Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign, Acrobat, After Effects, Premiere and Audition. But work has tailed off a lot due to bloody Brexit, and with my jump into Film I expect I won't be using them all for much longer. I agree it's a huge rip off and Adobe need their wings clipping.

Edited by PhilDon
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21 minutes ago, milezee said:

@PhilDon most 3D designers, architects and the like don't really use Adobes advanced tools like photographers, video editors, content creators, graphic designers etc do. The Affinity products are more than capable for most designers, and at £48.99 a license they are worthy pieces of software 

Back in the days when dinosaurs roamed these plains, I used to use a DTP application called Quark Xpress, it was great but they were greedy because had a monopoly on DTP software. I also used Photoshop and Illustrator was the new kid on the block, but they vowed to kill Quark and when they brought out INdesign we hailed Adobe as our saviour ... how times have changed. Bring on the Adobe killers!
When I get some cash I will invest as I expect everyone will ultimately jump ship.
10-15 years from now I expect Affinity will be the demons ...

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@PhilDon yep every demon has its day. I have a dislike for Autodesk and their subscription model, once they suck you in its difficult to move away. There was a plugin developed for Rhino, called T-Splines, it was very popular with the class A surface modellers, Autodesk dangled the developers a huge cash carrot, guess what happened, Autodesk killed the plugin and software, took the tech they needed, and implemented it into their own software, many users left high and dry (It didn't affect me, but it enhanced my dislike for their big corporate long arm crushing what they saw as a threat) 🤣

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1 minute ago, milezee said:

@PhilDon yep every demon has its day. I have a dislike for Autodesk and their subscription model, once they suck you in its difficult to move away. There was a plugin developed for Rhino, called T-Splines, it was very popular with the class A surface modellers, Autodesk dangled the developers a huge cash carrot, guess what happened, Autodesk killed the plugin and software, took the tech they needed, and implemented it into their own software, many users left high and dry (It didn't affect me, but it enhanced my dislike for their big corporate long arm crushing what they saw as a threat) 🤣

Wow, that's just evil - moreso for the plug in developers selling out their users.

What happens with software these days of course is that once the software becomes successful, the multinationals become interested and get their wallets out, they bring in all the ghouls and turn the thing into a gravy train.
C4D is a Nemetschek company, but has recently had a reshuffle - about 2 years ago and guess what? Their last release was a subscription based application!!

Also my preferred rendering tool Vray has gone over to subscription.

... yeah, I'm sticking with the old versions - bugger that!

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