STAIR visibility issue on Upper Layer floor plan viewport (HSVP)

[drelARCH]

Hi community, 

 

I have difficulty to hide that pink portion of stair in horizontal section VP for first floor plan. 

Stair object sits on ground floor layer, while slab that is above derive from first floor layer. So slab is above stair object....

Why is this happening ...? Any idea?

 

Thanks.

 

Pavol

Edited November 17, 2019 by drelARCH

[drelARCH]

different project but same scenario ... and same issue...?

Attached Upper Layer  Floor Plan in Horizontal section viewport.

[David S]

Hello Pavol I think i had a similar issue with doors like this showing in clip cube derived horizontal viewports. Can you try this instruction to see if it resolves the problem? (got this from VSS UK)

 

Cheers

 

 

D

 

 

 

[David S]

@Adam Robinson fyi

 

[drelARCH]

Thanks @David S for sharing this fix...unfortunately it doesn't work.

Strange enough when 'cut plane' option ( in 'Cut Plane and Display') accessed through Edit Section In-Place dialogue is set to 'View as Uncut below' I lose almost all viewport content that is below cut plane...?

You can see difference in attachment...it is gone by closing Edit Section In-Place dialogue...?

 

However trying to tweak viewport settings (trial and error thing) and unchecking Display Extents above Cut Plane will bring back content no matter to what is 'cut plane' for stair object set to.

 

This is too much for me now to grasp...I guess these settings must be somehow related

 

Anybody out there more experienced might know the answer...

 

[Matt Panzer]

First, I will say this is a problem that we need to address.  This video briefly explains what causes the problem and shows a not-so-obvious workaround:

My apologies for the rough video.  I'm on my way out the door...  🙂

 

[David S]

Sorry @drelARCH worked for my doors. 🙂  I didn't try it with the stairs.

[drelARCH]

Thanks a lot @Matt Panzer, you always find and have some working solution. I appreciate your quick answer and effort to help.

Now I see ...I have difficulty to switch my head from thinking that I am working solely with only 3D objects. There are of course 2D components attached to them and what we see in viewport is not actual 3D object, but its 2D representation...ah, funny 🙂

 

I managed to follow your steps, result is OK. There is now some graphic issue with top step and for some reason 'end marker' get missing...

 

Also I see (as written in previous post) whenever I check 'Display Extents above Cut Plane' and re-update viewport (i want to show roof light openings in plan) I lose almost  most below cut plane content (see attached second screen shot). I dont know if this is related, but it started to occur after i changed cut plane settings for stair object in Cut Plane and Display dialogue box.

Any idea what my cause this issue?

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by drelARCH

[line-weight]

I'm confused... is this "horizontal section" a new thing in VW2020? Is it some hybrid version of top/plan?

 

A real horizontal section would not have this problem, because it would be looking at the actual 3d geometry of the 3d part of the stair object, and would know which bits of the stair were hidden by the slab.

 

How do we end up with a situation where VW is suspending a 2d symbol in 3d space? It doesn't make any sense to me - either you stick with the top/plan concept of 2d symbols layered on each other, or you go proper 3d, and project the 3d geometry that's actually there.

[Matt Panzer]

@drelARCH,

You’re welcome!

Yes. The marker issue is a known bug and is currently being looked at.

As for your other issue, can you send me the file privately?

[Matt Panzer]

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

I'm confused... is this "horizontal section" a new thing in VW2020? Is it some hybrid version of top/plan?

 

A real horizontal section would not have this problem, because it would be looking at the actual 3d geometry of the 3d part of the stair object, and would know which bits of the stair were hidden by the slab.

 

How do we end up with a situation where VW is suspending a 2d symbol in 3d space? It doesn't make any sense to me - either you stick with the top/plan concept of 2d symbols layered on each other, or you go proper 3d, and project the 3d geometry that's actually there.

Horizontals sections go back a few versions, but 2019 introduced significant improvements and created a more obvious way to create them.

Would you really want the create construction documents with pure 3D sectioned geometry?  Of course, you can do that by turning of the “display 2D Components” option for the viewport.  However, true 3D cannot give the quality or speed expected for proper plan drawings on its own. This is where 2D components come in. They allow 3D objects to be replaced with a 2D schematic representation and allow the hidden line renderer to render faster by ignoring the 3D objects that display 2D components.  Take a viewport containing many 2D components. With “display 2d components” unselected, time how long it takes to update. Now select “display 2d components” and time how long it takes to update.  Not only can 2d components help make better drawings, but they can also make them faster (than pure 3D).

[line-weight]

@Matt Panzer actually yes, I do want to create the construction documents with pure 3d sectioned geometry, and this is what I now do, because a while ago I decided that top/plan simply doesn't work, at least for the kind of buildings I work on (appreciate this might not apply for everyone). I found that it could not generate floorplans that were of acceptable quality. In fact the issue raised in this thread is an example of the kind of thing that just doesn't work properly

 

Yes, it can be frustrating that my section-generated floorplans can take a while to update. I do use top/plan for editing purposes - especially for things like laying out doors, windows and walls, but the final drawing is generated from a horizontal section. Would it not be preferable to try and speed up the process of updating sections, instead of continuing with the top/plan concept which just seems like a kind of massive workaround to me?

 

Can you clarify exactly what a "horizontal section viewport" is though? When I look at the all my horizontal sections, they don't have a "display 2d components" option - but is this because of the way they are generated? Is this something to do with generating them from the clip cue rather than from an elevation view?

[Matt Panzer]

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

@Matt Panzer actually yes, I do want to create the construction documents with pure 3d sectioned geometry, and this is what I now do, because a while ago I decided that top/plan simply doesn't work, at least for the kind of buildings I work on (appreciate this might not apply for everyone). I found that it could not generate floorplans that were of acceptable quality. In fact the issue raised in this thread is an example of the kind of thing that just doesn't work properly

 

Right. Certainly there's a need for better true sectioned floor plans. The improvements in VW 2019 was our first significant effort towards this. For most users, 3D alone cannot provide required graphics for certain drawing standards. Because of this, we added the 2D component display capabilities to sections. To clarify, you can also display 2D components in vertical sections as well.

 

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

Yes, it can be frustrating that my section-generated floorplans can take a while to update. I do use top/plan for editing purposes - especially for things like laying out doors, windows and walls, but the final drawing is generated from a horizontal section. Would it not be preferable to try and speed up the process of updating sections,

 

Improving the performance sections and hidden line rendering is something we are continually working on.

 

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

instead of continuing with the top/plan conceptwhich just seems like a kind of massive workaround to me?

 

Displaying 2D components in sections is not continuing with the Top/Plan concept. It is a way to display schematic graphics (required by drawing standards) that pure 3D cannot provide. It does so in a way that allows the 2D graphics to intermesh with 3D geometry. The stair example in this thread is a more unusual case due to its sloped nature. However, the stair should place its 2D component in a better default location (bug reported on that and the 2D component location mode issue).  Moving forward, there are other possible improvements that can be done to improve how the stair does this, but the concept would be the same.  As I mentioned, this is our first significant step towards getting better quality graphics from the model and the goal is not only about placing 2D geometry within the model, but also (more importantly) creating a better model.

 

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

Can you clarify exactly what a "horizontal section viewport" is though? When I look at the all my horizontal sections, they don't have a "display 2d components" option - but is this because of the way they are generated? Is this something to do with generating them from the clip cue rather than from an elevation view?

 

I don't recall which version the "horizontal section" was first introduced (perhaps VW 2015 or 2016). Back then, it could only be created from the top or bottom face of a clip cube. The only difference this horizontal section had from a regular section (created from an elevation viewport) was that wall inserts (doors, windows, etc) would automatically display their 2D components. In 2019, horizontal sections now have a proper (and discoverable) way to be created (in the View menu) and their extents are presented more appropriately in the UI (ie: cut plane height and extents that are relative to design layer or story heights).

 

Regarding the "Display 2D Components" option: This option should be available in the Object Info palette (for any section viewport) when the extents beyond cut is rendered in Hidden Line or Dashed Hidden Line.

[line-weight]

@Matt Panzer thanks very much for taking the time to answer my questions. I now understand. I am still using 2018 which is why I'd not realised these concepts had been introduced into 2019 (I was aware of 2d components being added into 'normal' sections but hadn't appreciated that this was now part of horizontal sections too. Once I get onto 2020 I'll look forward to exploring this a bit more - it sounds like a positive step in the right direction. In fact it means that I can continue with my own horizontal-section approach to floor plans, with VW features converging with it rather than the opposite, which is very encouraging news.

 

 

[line-weight]

By the way I realised back in 2016 there was something going on with horizontal viewports; I even asked about it on here because it was confusing me -

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/46515-are-there-two-confusingly-slightly-different-types-of-section-viewport/

 

and never really got an answer, but now it makes more sense. So is there now only one type of section - however you create it - with the difference being controlled with the 'display 2d components' option?

[Matt Panzer]

5 hours ago, line-weight said:

@Matt Panzer thanks very much for taking the time to answer my questions. I now understand. I am still using 2018 which is why I'd not realised these concepts had been introduced into 2019 (I was aware of 2d components being added into 'normal' sections but hadn't appreciated that this was now part of horizontal sections too. Once I get onto 2020 I'll look forward to exploring this a bit more - it sounds like a positive step in the right direction. In fact it means that I can continue with my own horizontal-section approach to floor plans, with VW features converging with it rather than the opposite, which is very encouraging news.

you’re very welcome, @line-weight!

 

Right. We believe this is a Very good step forward.  Sure, we have more steps to go, but VW2019 implemented  two of the more difficult ones (with sectioning and 2d components).

[Matt Panzer]

5 hours ago, line-weight said:

By the way I realised back in 2016 there was something going on with horizontal viewports; I even asked about it on here because it was confusing me -

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/46515-are-there-two-confusingly-slightly-different-types-of-section-viewport/

 

and never really got an answer, but now it makes more sense. So is there now only one type of section - however you create it - with the difference being controlled with the 'display 2d components' option?

Yeah.  I didn’t even know about them until shortly after starting my position here at Vectorworks!  It was a well hidden feature. I believe it was not marketed much because the display of 2d components was still very limited and we didn’t want users to feel they should create floor plans with them over using Top/plan.  But now they’ve gotten quite a bit more capable.  🙂

[line-weight]

6 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

Yeah.  I didn’t even know about them until shortly after starting my position here at Vectorworks!  It was a well hidden feature. I believe it was not marketed much because the display of 2d components was still very limited and we didn’t want users to feel they should create floor plans with them over using Top/plan.  But now they’ve gotten quite a bit more capable.  🙂

 

It doesn't seem to have been marketed much at all in the release of 2020. There was mention of something about 'horizontal sections' and I was curious about that, but it was not explained at all and I assumed it to be something trivial.

 

I'll reserve final judgement until I actually try out 2020 of course, but what you describe gives me the most positive feeling about a future for Vectorworks that I've had for some time. Finally an indication that somewhere someone making strategic design decisions 'gets it'.

 

I've put off upgrading to 2019 and 2020 so far, partly because of perceived unreliability and general disillusionment but also because none of the developments introduced seemed particularly worth it. Had I understood better the thinking behind the horizontal section advances, I might have been more tempted. I've been banging on for some time about how VW should stop introducing new bits and pieces and focus on sorting out the core functionality. This sounds like an actual move in that direction.

 

Back in 2016 I wrote a rant about what I saw as a dead end for top/plan view. Turns out that some of what I wanted is finally coming true. Pleasing news.

 

 

[Matt Panzer]

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

It doesn't seem to have been marketed much at all in the release of 2020. There was mention of something about 'horizontal sections' and I was curious about that, but it was not explained at all and I assumed it to be something trivial.

 

Right. A lot of work went into this and it's far from trivial. The horizontal sections, 2d components, and detail levels are all significant features on their own. Putting them all together in one release cycle was not an easy task and required a very large number of engineers. While we did talk about 2d components and detail levels in marketing, we did not want to make a lot of noise about horizontal sections because of some outstanding issues with them.

 

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

I'll reserve final judgement until I actually try out 2020 of course, but what you describe gives me the most positive feeling about a future for Vectorworks that I've had for some time. Finally an indication that somewhere someone making strategic design decisions 'gets it'.

 

Yes. We do "get it". It's just that there are challenges to move from where we are to where we want to be. Performance is a big hurdle.  I miss the old days when CPU speeds doubled every 18 months. 😉

 

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

I've put off upgrading to 2019 and 2020 so far, partly because of perceived unreliability and general disillusionment but also because none of the developments introduced seemed particularly worth it. Had I understood better the thinking behind the horizontal section advances, I might have been more tempted. I've been banging on for some time about how VW should stop introducing new bits and pieces and focus on sorting out the core functionality. This sounds like an actual move in that direction.

 

A lot of kinks with sections and 2d components have been worked out in 2020 so it would definitely be worth a look.

 

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

Back in 2016 I wrote a rant about what I saw as a dead end for top/plan view. Turns out that some of what I wanted is finally coming true. Pleasing news.

 

Oh yes.  I remember that thread well!  That thread began very soon after we started working ideas that, some of which, later became the "Horizontal Sections 2.0" feature!  This is why I was confused about your initial comment about the feature in this thread. I expected you to be more excited than most users. 🙂

[Archistyles]

On 11/15/2019 at 5:18 PM, Matt Panzer said:

First, I will say this is a problem that we need to address.  This video briefly explains what causes the problem and shows a not-so-obvious workaround:

My apologies for the rough video.  I'm on my way out the door...  🙂

 

Hi folks

I am having trouble with this issue (Portion of stairs (from floor below) under slab showing on Top/Plan view)

I tried the workaround , moved the plan of the proxy object down to bottom of the slab but still no success.

I am using regular viewport for floor plans (not horizontal section viewport).

VW2024

Please help

thx

[Archistyles]

I just experimented it with horizontal section viewport and it worked.

 

So is there a solution for regular viewport  for Top/Plan views? (Hide stairs below slab)

[Matt Panzer]

On 9/16/2023 at 2:00 PM, Archistyles said:

I just experimented it with horizontal section viewport and it worked.

 

So is there a solution for regular viewport  for Top/Plan views? (Hide stairs below slab)

 

The only thing you can do in Top/Plan is to adjust the stacking order of the stair and slab (using "Send to Back", etc).  If you keep slabs on a separate design layer, you could move your stair objects to that layer as well.  This will allow you to better control the stacking order between these objects

[line-weight]

This is an example of why Horizontal Sections are the sensible way forward, not Top/Plan 👍

 

@Matt Panzer would it be fair to say that the Horizontal Section method of generating floorplans still doesn't really get actively promoted?

Edited September 18, 2023 by line-weight

[Matt Panzer]

36 minutes ago, line-weight said:

This is an example of why Horizontal Sections are the sensible way forward, not Top/Plan 👍

 

I agree.

 

36 minutes ago, line-weight said:

@Matt Panzer would it be fair to say that the Horizontal Section method of generating floorplans still doesn't really get actively promoted?

 

I think that's fair to say for sure!  Certainly, there are remaining challenges with horizontal sections but I believe the more users getting on board with them will help us prioritize their shortcomings and help them become an ideal solution.  There are a lot of features that become very difficult to deal with in Top/Plan because, as soon as an object's geometry vary's along the vertical (ie: tilted walls and columns, sloped roofs, etc.), there's only so much Top/Plan can do.  Even if every object attempts to create and auto hybrid graphic of itself, the stacking order of Top/Plan will prevent the object from interacting with other objects.  There's simply no way to solve this problem without truly sectioning the model as a whole.  Horizontal sections eliminate this issue for the vast majority of cases but there are some cases where 2D Top components of objects still could have some issues.  An example of this would be a stair object that displays a 2D Top component of itself and the bottom of the stair is underneath and obscured by the slab but the top of the stair has railings that extend over top of the same slab.  But we do have ideas of how these cases may be better handled in the future.

[zoomer]

8 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

Even if every object attempts to create and auto hybrid graphic of itself,

 

Sounds like a plan (?) ..... for horizontal Sections ....

And the Auto Hybrid part is cached in Section until an object is changed.

Where the Auto Hybrid thing inherits some of the visualization tricks from

top plan view of PIOs representation, also for Generic Solids or if you cut

through e.g. a Window ....

 

(?)