Framing Improvements

[Taproot]

Here's a link to a plugin that is being developed for sketchup that gives extensive control of framing members.

 

It would be great to see the framing tools in VW correct the numerous legacy bugs and take a leap forward.

 

 

 

[taoist]

Matt,

 

Understand about all the facets of user requests.

Truly glad to hear that they are high on your list.

[Ryder361]

On 8/1/2024 at 1:21 PM, Matt Panzer said:

 

Sure.  I completely agree that the framing tools are not what they should be (and by a long shot).  Decisions as to what features are added or improved come from many placeholders and other factors.  I'm mainly trying to provide some insight to that effect.  There are literally thousands of requests we have and hundreds that are high priority.  All software companies want to do everything better than the competition but each much choose manageable chunks to work on at any given time.

 

We do want users to keep asking for things that are important to them because what's important to users is also important to us.  Just because we haven't added or improved something wished for since "X years ago" does not mean otherwise.  As I previous mentioned, we do want to improve our framing tools and vertically stacked components is very high on our list.

Hey @Matt Panzer 👋🏼

 

I am currently working on my Vectorworks University certification as part of my transition away from SketchUp+Medeek Suite (the framing & MEP plug-ins mentioned previously). Framing is an essential part of my documentation workflow for obtaining building permits, cost estimating, and construction logistics.

 

Medeek was a great starting point for me years ago when I was only working on houses, but now I'm tackling larger and more complicated projects, such as hotels and resorts, and find Medeek too limiting. That is why I was very excited to learn that Vectorworks has a native framing solution and began investing in it the last couple weeks. This led me to discover this thread today, and I must say I am disappointed to learn about the lack of development and ongoing issues regarding this function.

 

The current state of Vectorworks’ framing tools forces me to further explore the landscape of BIM options. It sounds like there won’t be significant improvements in framing for quite some time. I just wanted to provide my insight and hope that you will consider prioritizing this more.

[DBrown]

19 hours ago, Ryder361 said:

Hey @Matt Panzer 👋🏼

 

I am currently working on my Vectorworks University certification as part of my transition away from SketchUp+Medeek Suite (the framing & MEP plug-ins mentioned previously). Framing is an essential part of my documentation workflow for obtaining building permits, cost estimating, and construction logistics.

 

Medeek was a great starting point for me years ago when I was only working on houses, but now I'm tackling larger and more complicated projects, such as hotels and resorts, and find Medeek too limiting. That is why I was very excited to learn that Vectorworks has a native framing solution and began investing in it the last couple weeks. This led me to discover this thread today, and I must say I am disappointed to learn about the lack of development and ongoing issues regarding this function.

 

The current state of Vectorworks’ framing tools forces me to further explore the landscape of BIM options. It sounds like there won’t be significant improvements in framing for quite some time. I just wanted to provide my insight and hope that you will consider prioritizing this more.

Sorry to bring this up to you but the Medeek tool is way more advanced than the sad Wall Framing tool we have in Vectorworks, is way too ancient to be useful, it will give you some basic framing models, some basic material take-offs, but that's about it, the list of the things it can't do is way more extensive than the list of the thing it can do, is not parametric, meaning you will have to use the tool again and again if you change something in the design, you can't use custom profiles, you can't use it in walls with components, it can't do gable walls, and so on, but Vectorworks is more capable than Sketchup in BIM modeling, drafting and 3D modeling, but not in wall / roof framing or Stacked Walls like any other BIM tool out there

Edited August 5 by DBrown
typo

[Amorphous - Julian]

On 8/2/2024 at 4:21 AM, Matt Panzer said:

 

Sure.  I completely agree that the framing tools are not what they should be (and by a long shot).  Decisions as to what features are added or improved come from many placeholders and other factors.  I'm mainly trying to provide some insight to that effect.  There are literally thousands of requests we have and hundreds that are high priority.  All software companies want to do everything better than the competition but each much choose manageable chunks to work on at any given time.

 

We do want users to keep asking for things that are important to them because what's important to users is also important to us.  Just because we haven't added or improved something wished for since "X years ago" does not mean otherwise.  As I previous mentioned, we do want to improve our framing tools and vertically stacked components is very high on our list.

 
It is so good to have a user-advocate like you to be on our side, @Matt Panzer . Only a fellow user can understand benefits and frustrations we experience. 

Your involvement in the forum has reignited my warmth to the Vectorworks platform.

At the same time, each year other BIM platforms leaps ahead of Vectorworks, is another year I lose efficiency in my office and our workflow.

If 5 years have passed and my office doesn't get stacked walls, it means my team loses 30%-50% efficiency on that specific task (modelling walls is a big part of the architectural task, I'm sure you can imagine: from design, visualisation to documentation).  

At the same time, I am building up office standards (or SOP), based on a flawed workflow with the current wall tool- that's more time spent writing up manuals on 'why we use the wall tool the way we do'.

Will this last another 5 years? We have no timeline from Vectorworks, and the lack of clarity as to when we can improve our workflow is what makes other BIM packages start to look attractive (as distance improvements for Vectorworks are what they already have now)

I run a Mac office, and going Revit will be very very painful. But FYI I am going to attend a Revit course next month, and will make my office dual-BIM via ESXi. 

So, my sincere advise is that- whatever it takes- Vectorworks must make one big push to get ahead in all aspects at the next release (issue bonds to us users, find investment on capital market, get capital injection from Nemetschek, whatever will fund this necessary investment!).

If some of these improvements don't happen soon, I worry Vectorworks will fall behind too quickly. By that time, us users will have to make choices based on efficiency.

I don't have to tell you that the BIM landscape is really changing fast- So the difference in priorities between Vectorworks as a corporation and us as your end users really need to align quickly, before the gaps becomes too wide to close. 

Edited August 9 by Amorphous - Julian

[Matt Panzer]

11 hours ago, Amorphous - Julian said:

 
It is so good to have a user-advocate like you to be on our side, @Matt Panzer . Only a fellow user can understand benefits and frustrations we experience. 

Your involvement in the forum has reignited my warmth to the Vectorworks platform.

At the same time, each year other BIM platforms leaps ahead of Vectorworks, is another year I lose efficiency in my office and our workflow.

If 5 years have passed and my office doesn't get stacked walls, it means my team loses 30%-50% efficiency on that specific task (modelling walls is a big part of the architectural task, I'm sure you can imagine: from design, visualisation to documentation).  

At the same time, I am building up office standards (or SOP), based on a flawed workflow with the current wall tool- that's more time spent writing up manuals on 'why we use the wall tool the way we do'.

Will this last another 5 years? We have no timeline from Vectorworks, and the lack of clarity as to when we can improve our workflow is what makes other BIM packages start to look attractive (as distance improvements for Vectorworks are what they already have now)

I run a Mac office, and going Revit will be very very painful. But FYI I am going to attend a Revit course next month, and will make my office dual-BIM via ESXi. 

So, my sincere advise is that- whatever it takes- Vectorworks must make one big push to get ahead in all aspects at the next release (issue bonds to us users, find investment on capital market, get capital injection from Nemetschek, whatever will fund this necessary investment!).

If some of these improvements don't happen soon, I worry Vectorworks will fall behind too quickly. By that time, us users will have to make choices based on efficiency.

I don't have to tell you that the BIM landscape is really changing fast- So the difference in priorities between Vectorworks as a corporation and us as your end users really need to align quickly, before the gaps becomes too wide to close. 

 

Thanks, Julian.  And, after being here, I also understand the reality of software development much better.  This is why many of my comments try to explain the situation from both the user and engineering sides.  All I can say is that we're doing what we can and some of the more significant features we're planning cannot realistically be implemented in tandem because they affect so many areas of the software (risking conflicting code and lots a bugs).  While I cannot say when you might see vertically stacked wall components, I will say that, and other features, are planned that will create more efficient workflows for architects.

[taoist]

Video of Archicad 25 creating stacked walls.

 

 

[DBrown]

Please don't go the Revit way,  I also have a Mac-only office and it is best to go the Archicad way, costs about the same, but now with the new subscription licensing, I use Vectorworks for some time, stop paying the license and jump to Archicad to do the next step in the project, usually MEP and HVAC

 

On 8/9/2024 at 12:25 AM, Amorphous - Julian said:

I run a Mac office, and going Revit will be very very painful. But FYI I am going to attend a Revit course next month, and will make my office dual-BIM via ESXi. 

[DBrown]

21 minutes ago, taoist said:

Video of Archicad 25 creating stacked walls.

 

 

Like we say in my country, don't eat bread in front of the hungry....

[Matt Panzer]

1 hour ago, taoist said:

Video of Archicad 25 creating stacked walls.

 

 

While this is a nice feature, what is not shown in the video is how wall closure profiles and wrapping can be applied at door and window openings for complex walls.  We don’t want to introduce a feature that has fundamental limitations like that.

[taoist]

Here is a sample from an Archicad user video about splayed if you will openings.

just to show some possibilities.

 

Remember, Vectorworks Archicad, Allplan are all part of Nemetscheck.

Archicad was originally written for the Apple OS.

Was the 1st to do BIM.

 

 

 

[taoist]

Notice in the video how you are able to set the reference of the inside edge of the trim a distance away from the inside edge

of the door jamb, as it would be in the real world.  In Residential, (USA) typically 1/4".

 

[taoist]

It is not about denigrating Vectorworks, it is about showing what other Architectural Software is doing.

 

We need to be honest and open.

We all have our preferred software to work with.

it s not about contesting if you will, it is about what others

are doing to solve or have a work around the issue.

 

It is all about us learning from each other.

Regardless of the discipline, is it an improvement or not.?

[Matt Panzer]

27 minutes ago, taoist said:

It is not about denigrating Vectorworks, it is about showing what other Architectural Software is doing.

 

We need to be honest and open.

We all have our preferred software to work with.

it s not about contesting if you will, it is about what others

are doing to solve or have a work around the issue.

 

It is all about us learning from each other.

Regardless of the discipline, is it an improvement or not.?

Sure.  It’s always good to see what other software is doing.  My last comment was getting to the point that no one application does everything better than all others.  That video showing how to create a splayed wall opening is not doing so on a complex wall.  I may be mistaken, but I believe it does not show it on a complex wall because there’s no good way to do it.  All software has their pros and cons and we’re all working hard to make improvements.

[Amorphous - Julian]

On 8/10/2024 at 12:11 AM, Matt Panzer said:

 

Thanks, Julian.  And, after being here, I also understand the reality of software development much better.  This is why many of my comments try to explain the situation from both the user and engineering sides.  All I can say is that we're doing what we can and some of the more significant features we're planning cannot realistically be implemented in tandem because they affect so many areas of the software (risking conflicting code and lots a bugs).  While I cannot say when you might see vertically stacked wall components, I will say that, and other features, are planned that will create more efficient workflows for architects.

I do appreciate the mammoth difficulty of your job, @Matt Panzer. You come into this job inheriting a backlog of thousands of unprocessed posts and feature requests.

 

At the same same time, you have to balance being our advocate and tread the fine line of corporate messaging - representing Vectorworks is your other role. I’m sure there are many things you’d like to tell us but can’t. And not to mention angry users who would direct their frustration on Vectorworks, at forum moderators like you (I’ve been there myself- with your predecessor).

 

So, it is appreciated you’ve stuck it through for us in this role.

 

On the issue of agonised, frustrated waiting customers, Uber is often the poster child that is said to have successfully addressed it. Users can see the progress, and are given a timeline, during the waiting process.

 

Can this forum offer the same thing at the top of each post? A visual staging tracker so we can see how far an issue has progressed (it’s like bring part of your Jira system to be customer-facing)

 

The tracker can would be something like:

‘A’ > ’B’ > ‘C’ > ‘D’ > ‘E’ > ‘F’ > ‘H’

(current estimate: 6 years)

 

‘A’ = Issue Posted on forum 

‘B’ = Fulfilled Upvotes numbers 

‘C’ = Issue replicable by engineers

’D’ = Joined Development Queue

‘E’ = Development in progress 

‘F’ = Seeded for Testing

’G’ = Scheduled for next SP/Release 

‘H’ = Successfully implemented fix for feedback

 

I’m sure you can appreciate that creating forum posts- just like crafting  emails- takes a lot of time. And if the time invested in forum yields no return, we will stop creating posts (which I have for years, until I saw your engagement here). It would be unfortunate for Vectorworks to lose such valuable, valuable customer feedback.  

 

I know it’s a lot of work, but most successful businesses thrive and succeed because they listen to customer feedback, and implement changes swiftly. I recently saw a masterclass where entrepreneur Mark Cuban said all feedback emails of all his companies (ie feedback@(company.com) from customers goes directly to his inbox, and he makes personal calls to customers to address each issue. He attributes his many company’s success to this active listening to customers.

In summary, tracker would be such a good addition to this forum, to make us feel listened to. And we will also stop bugging you, ‘Matt, when is [insert issue] happening?’ 🤣

 

> > > 

 

 

 

Edited August 10 by Amorphous - Julian

[Matt Panzer]

Thanks again, @Amorphous - Julian.  Sometimes it's a delicate balance of what I can say and how I say it. 😉 

 

While the idea of some sort of progress meter would be great, I see it being potentially doing more harm than good and it would take a lot of additional time for us to manage.  We try to be open about planned features but there are limits to what we can make public and many things are in flux which can cause our focus to shift to certain features in any given cycle.  I think our public roadmap is the best place to keep this for now because it keeps everything in one spot.  I totally get wanting to see what you propose but, in the end, I don't see a realistic way to create and maintain it.