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macOS Catalina (10.15) Compatibility

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@Jeremy Best OK BUT....

 

The new thing about VW in the past few years regarding compatibility is that typically VW launches its new annual version every september. Apple launches their new OS every october. The new software is NEVER compatible with the new OSX on launch. It's become the common wisdom NOT to upgrade to VW new versions until at least SP2 every year because they are not compatible with the new apple OS. 

 

This creates a situation where most users on OSX are a half year behind upgrade cycles. Because VWX file types are linked to the software version, this means offices have to migrate simultaneously. This means that Nemetschek, by not making sure VW is ready to go on day 1 of new OS releases, is creating a situation where most users are getting about half of their upgrade value by being always a half year behind the upgrade / compatibility cycle. This isn't the way a contract software should work. 

 

Adobe, hate em/love em, have this well under control. It would be nice if Nemetschek staggered their release cycles so they could work out all the kinks. It would be a major upgrade to user experience.

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11 minutes ago, B Cox said:

This creates a situation where most users on OSX are a half year behind upgrade cycles. Because VWX file types are linked to the software version, this means offices have to migrate simultaneously. This means that Nemetschek, by not making sure VW is ready to go on day 1 of new OS releases, is creating a situation where most users are getting about half of their upgrade value by being always a half year behind the upgrade / compatibility cycle. This isn't the way a contract software should work. 

 

For such kind of arguments, I still fail to understand why macOS has to be updated the day it comes out. Why must VW wait 6 months, why not macOS?

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@Nicolas Goutte Gosh I cant think of a reason why... Maybe because there are 100 million OSX users?

 

Are you trolling?

Edited by B Cox
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24 minutes ago, B Cox said:

@Nicolas Goutte Gosh I cant think of a reason why... Maybe because there are 100 million OSX users?

 

Are you trolling?

Another way would be for software vendors to test the actual release of OSX rather than beta only and not issue upgrades the same month as apple releases their latest version of the OS. As several have said on this forum, the final release of OSX can differ from beta. Appx 6 months stagger may be adequate assurance that the latest software version will be reasonably compatible with the latest OS.  From the experience with Mojave, it took many vendors 6 months after release to catch up. This would restore confidence that subscribers are only funding upgrades rather than collaborating on compatibility testing. 

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I agree that VW should wait 3-6 months after the release of a new macOS, but I can think of a reason they won't; taxes. Releasing the latest version before the end of the year gives them tax breaks the can take advantage of immediately. After Jan 1, those breaks don't happen until the end of the year. 

 

Yes, that stinks, but they are in the business of making money, as we all are. I don't have a fix for this, I just understand this portion. 

 

The user community will be 3–6 months behind at all times. Sometimes we don't have the time for the testing, and we get two versions behind and scream at support because we can't get any work done. 

 

I was never happy about the yearly subscription model, but these are the times we live in. It makes more money for VW and causes us headaches. We either go along or quit using the product. There is nothing else worth a sh*t for macOS. We have to live with the problems. 

What we don't have to do is be quiet about them. Keep those cards and letters coming. Maybe VW will invest in better testing and QC, and maybe my next job won't have unreasonable requests to do impossible things without a change order or additional costs. I can only hope.
 

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I don't think it has anything to do with taxes.

 

Vectorworks has to deal with two operating systems. They can't plan releases around unannounced release dates of those OS's.

 

When VW picked the fall release date before Apple moved to Fall OS releases. 

 

As far as planning goes, a VW release is planned a long time in advance. There ads that have to be created and purchased, training materials that have to be created. Etc. If Apple decided in June to say they would not release until December (or October as they did this year), that is far too late for VW to be able to rearrange their schedule.

 

The best we can hope for is a product to be ready when it is released. Any outside changes that happen after then just have to be dealt with.

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53 minutes ago, B Cox said:

@Nicolas Goutte Gosh I cant think of a reason why... Maybe because there are 100 million OSX users?

 

Are you trolling?

No, I am not trolling. If updating an OS breaks vital software for one's business, then I would not update. And curiously that argument is always applied to VW, seldom to macOS.

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3 hours ago, B Cox said:

It's become the common wisdom NOT to upgrade to VW new versions until at least SP2 every year because they are not compatible with the new apple OS. 

It's the same with any major software and MacOS while Windows doesn't have this issue. Obviously it's a problem of Apple. I really don't understand why you blame Vectorworks for this. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Same issue with life cycles. Every bigger app only works on the last two or three releases of macOS. It is common knowledge.  It doesn't help to complain in the forums of the software manufacturers. You have to go to Apple.

Edited by herbieherb
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While VW is a bit special.

C4D, Modo, Bricscad and all secondary Software are definitely not that sensitive.

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8 hours ago, zoomer said:

While VW is a bit special.

C4D, Modo, Bricscad and all secondary Software are definitely not that sensitive.

↑ Hear hear!!

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On 12/5/2019 at 2:55 AM, B Cox said:

It's become the common wisdom NOT to upgrade to VW new versions until at least SP2 every year because they are not compatible with the new apple OS. 

 

In our market at least, waiting for SP2 has been the preferred choice of users for whom fewer bugs in the latest versions of Vectorworks is more important than the immediate benefits offered by new features. - 2018 was the first year in many years that the operating system became the primary reason to wait for subsequent updates, due to the lateness and significance of changes introduced in Mojave.

 

I agree it would be great if the release dates could be at polar opposites in the calendar, but as @Pat Stanford pointed out, if Vectorworks, Inc changed their release cycle, they'd be in a difficult situation should Apple change their own release date again. 

 

On 12/5/2019 at 2:55 AM, B Cox said:

Adobe, hate em/love em, have this well under control.

It seems pretty certain that their long, close and interdependent relationship with Apple affords them the early-insight needed to adjust to changes earlier than others. Or maybe it's their massive coffers! 😉 

 

While the proximity of the VW and macOS release dates is a factor in how quickly compatibility can be achieved, the biggest factor for Mojave was the lateness and significance of the changes that developers had to respond to. - Trends indicate this is not something that will occur every year and even if they do, I think Vectorworks, Inc have proven their ability to adjust accordingly to such circumstances, evidenced by the comparatively quick and smooth compatibility achieved with Catalina. 

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Even Adobe has encouraged their customers to wait with the update because they hadn't fixed all the problems with the release of Catalina.

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@RonMan and @RafaelPernia, Seeing as this PDF hatch-colour issue has occurred before Catalina it's probably not particular to Catalina and the discussion should be moved to it's own thread in the Troubleshooting forum. 

 

On 12/4/2019 at 9:00 AM, RonMan said:

Vectorworks has created PDF files with these kinds of problems for years.

 

Given that this issue isn't affecting everyone it's less likely to be a VW bug and more likely to be caused by: 

  • Corrupt resources (hatches etc) or Classes brought forward over the years. 
  • Something particular to your Vectorworks installations, or
  • [Operating] system setup. The following post might hold the key for your issue, but if not it at least highlights how this kind of result could be caused by something other than Vectorworks: 

If this matter warrants further collaboration please restart it in the Troubleshooting Forum or submit it to the Vectorworks Tech Support provider for your region or submit a bug report. (See 'BUG SUBMIT' at the bottom of this page). 

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On 12/2/2019 at 6:53 PM, B Cox said:

 

Is it really so much to ask that Nemetschek works to make sure that this very expensive piece of software functions for more than a year? planned obsolescence much?

I would agree with the sentiment offered by @Jeremy Best

 

In general, VW has been running without any issues for a number of OS updates for many years.

 

2014 (barring the hiccups with 10.11) is still running on 10.12 despite not officially being supported.  On Windows it is still running.  That 6 years.

 

I run 2015 on 10.12

 

I run 2016 on 10.12, and suffer 10.13

 

I run 2018 on Mojave.  2019 runs on Catalina.  2020 runs on Catalina.

 

Which version are you using that only works for a year?

 

I have never ever had a version of vectorworks that only works for a year after it's official release date.

Edited by shorter
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@shorter If you're only interested in gaslighting its better not to reply. You can read above this post of people who are having compatibility problems.

 

And it sounds like you are describing exactly that software can only work on each annual release of OSX as described. Hence, works for one year.

Edited by B Cox

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sorry, but what's 'gaslighting'?

 

VW 2018 came out in september 2017...  catalina came out in 2019?  that's two years by my reckoning and i would recommend upgrading every two years or so otherwise not updating your OS, or have plans just in case you have to through hardware failure, etc.  By subscribing to VSS you will always be prepared, always have the latest version, so you can update OSs and hardware to your heart's content, and be saving money in the meantime.  What's not to like?

 

I would always think twice before updating my OS and if I did so and my software didn't work, I would only have myself to blame.  Can't see it's Vectorworks fault, TBH, but there you go.

 

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@shorter The problem with your perspective is that it is as a salesperson not a normal professional user. If you cant contribute anything constructive to this discussion encouraging Nemetschek to improving subscriber experience, then stop replying.  Maybe it's because you have a profit motive in selling licenses, that you feel that VW is unassailable? This is a continuously toxic problem with this forum's userbase.

 

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Was that necessary?

 

How do you know I am not a professional user?

 

FYI i represent a large user base in the UK as a Vectorworks CAD and BIM consultant and architect (bit simplistic but for arguments sake) as well as being a user myself and am responsible in many instances helping offices with their cashflow and IT budgeting as well as generally helping to streamline processes and helping practices become more efficient.  I am not a salesman.

 

And the advice I offer, in addition to taking a good look at how you work and how you might improve your workflows and data structures, is to get yourself on to VSS. It will make the ongoing cost of maintaining your primary software less expensive.  It is cashflow friendly and if you actually look at the costs you will find the cost of maintaining VW under a VSS contract in the UK, for example, at the moment is less than £2 a day! No idea what the costs are like where you are but I would be surprised if they were much higher.

 

Most software operates now on an annual cycle basis. Vectorworks are not unique in that respect but in VSS there is a really cost effective long term payment plan that takes the sting out of having to find 4x the amount in one lump every 4 years or so which is far less affordable and why so many find themselves with out of date hardware and software.

 

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Jan 20th 2020 - Is there a quick, simple answer for my users in our company please:

Assuming the hardware meets requirements can Vectorworks 2020 Spotlight & Braceworks run reliably on macOS Catalina as of today?

Apologies if this question has already been answered somewhere else in this thread, but I don't have time to read through all the posts at the moment.

 

 

 

 

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I have been consistently using VW2020 Designer on Catalina for weeks. I have found no major problems. 

I am adding a eGPU and an AMD Radeon Pro WX 7100 to improve performance. My system:

 

 Model Name: MacBook Pro

 Model Identifier: MacBookPro15,1

 Processor Name: 6-Core Intel Core i9

 Processor Speed: 2.9 GHz

 

is bogging down with this graphics configuration:

 

Radeon Pro 560X:

 

Thunderbolt Display:

  Display Type: LCD

  Resolution: 2560 x 1440 (QHD/WQHD - Wide Quad High Definition)

  UI Looks like: 2560 x 1440

  Framebuffer Depth: 30-Bit Color (ARGB2101010)

 

Thunderbolt Display:

  Display Type: LCD

  Resolution: 2560 x 1440 (QHD/WQHD - Wide Quad High Definition)

  UI Looks like: 2560 x 1440

  Framebuffer Depth: 30-Bit Color (ARGB2101010)

 

The screens will not refresh under load. I have to either force an update by moving the view slightly (I bump the scroll wheel forth and back), or quit VW and wait until GPU memory has been cleaned. That can take 15-20 minutes.

 

I am specific about my configuration because others have had no issues or some minor ones. I believe VW2020 is ready for prime time now. Don't forget to do your updates.

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I would say that VW runs mostly reliably on Catalina. I had a crash an hour or more on Friday but none on Monday with the same files. Restarting didn't appear to affect stability. I don't believe that VW2020 is as reliable as VW 2019 was at the end of last year though and some fairly major bugs or feature limitations (things which just don't work at the moment) are still present.

 

A yardstick I use is recently opened files. Since putting VW2020 onto a new computer, I have not yet got better than 10 recently opened files in the menu… that's to say that VW crashes and loses the items in the list fairly regularly! With VW2019, I almost always had 20 files in the list.

 

There are more than a few oddities in VW2020 with 3D graphics where entities will appear out of place after a while and views be in the wrong orientation… for example, a front view will suddenly become the top view after editing a symbol. And various symbols will appear in the wrong place… I think this is purely a graphics/cache bug… until the file is closed and reopened when they go back to being in the right spot. Not that this behaviour is new to 2020, it's been there since 2018 at least. I just hoped some of these things would get better.

 

What is better in 2020 is the reduced rendering delays when working in 3D. You can open a large drawing and start work sooner though many of the shapes will be incorrect for some time… circles coming out as rectangles and hex shapes. 

 

On the other hand, I am not sure if I can think of many reasons to go from 2019 to 2020. I can't think of any particularly important new features other than the ability to edit 3D shapes which have a fillet on them without having to redo the fillet but this is countered by some of the newer bugs.

 

What would be really nice, apart from having some of the long standing bugs fixed, is if NNA had an officially OK computer, something which was tested to work with VW so we didn't always have the get-out clause of nobody else uses that setup or nobody else has reported that problem which I always get. What's the recommended setup? A 27" iMac? A Mac Pro? A MacBook Pro? I'd just like to know to see if the bugs I get also happen on other computers.

 

D

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Vectorworks Inc endorsed Catalina for Vectorworks 2020 back in October 2019, so it's fine to expect the software to deliver its advantages. 

 

18 hours ago, Benedick_Miller said:

Assuming the hardware meets requirements can Vectorworks 2020 Spotlight & Braceworks run reliably on macOS Catalina as of today?

 

Assuming you have ideal conditions, my answer is, absolutely. I say 'ideal conditions' because there are a myriad of variables that determine how well software performs and the setup and historical maintenance are factors, even if the previous version worked fine. If you want to get a fair sense of software stability and performance, you need to provide ideal conditions and rule out variables that can compromise performance. Of those variables, here's what comes to mind on-the-fly: 

 

To get software to run as best as possible; 

  • Instead of just upgrading your operating system, erase then install it fresh. - You should expect to do this at least every few upgrades anyway. 
  • Account for inevitable data corruption. 1 in 1500 files are corrupt, so:
    • Expect to recreate your resource files at some point. Vectorworks resources and others. 
    • Set up perpetual backups so you can recover lost data or turn back time should you identify/experience a corruption. 
    • Don't expect a migrated macOS user account to function as well as a virgin one. There's just too many files handled in this process to expect flawless execution. 
  • Ensure your system is capable of the task you are executing. Just because the previous version of software did something the current one has trouble with, it doesn't mean the newer software is cause. Which brings me to: 
  • Keep in mind that newer software employs newer conventions that older hardware or drivers won't/can't handle. Ensure ALL your OS, hardware, drivers and software are current. 
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>>.  Instead of just upgrading your operating system, erase then install it fresh. - You should expect to do this at least every few upgrades anyway. 

 

This is what I did just before the better than one crash per hour days. 

 

>> Account for inevitable data corruption. 1 in 1500 files are corrupt, so:   Expect to recreate your resource files at some point. Vectorworks resources and others. 

 

I'm not sure what to say about this suggestion! Isn't this like saying "have you tried turning it off and on again?" It's akin to losing 10% or more of your working year, redrawing symbols etc. with the guarantee of errors every time and fine for a distributor to suggest but not a user. I have done this in the past, including recreating workspaces etc and not found any significant difference in stability. For the other limitations in each release where there are bugs or tools which don't work, it won't make any difference.

 

There are several programs I use which scan plugins and other resource files for possible errors, either on startup, on migration or on request. If corrupted resources are a factor, then surely this is something that NNA should sort out? My guess is that they would know better than me what might corrupt VW and cause a crash. 

 

DMcD

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