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Christiaan

Window and Door Tool maturity

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2 hours ago, Christiaan said:

 

Oh where's Jim where you need him. He would give you a very good explanation of where the bottlenecks are in the process and how they are improving them (and they are improving them).

 

The bottleneck being that the wall and slab (= roof) insertion and their overall upgrading has been delayed so long, that the whole BIM is affected by it.

I don't see this being caught up while I am professionally active.

 

There are, on my opinion, these fundamental flaws affecting Doors and Windows:

  • wall insertion is very basic, 2D/3D wrapping barely existent, walls only line-based vs. polygonal based
  • plug-ins are too inflexible

So Matt Panzer, who is a friend who hates me now -and I am awfully sorry about that- develops wonderfully well something, but most of us don't need it.

He did it perfectly, bug free. But it's not what we expect. I got rageful when I saw the barn door. 

 

We need user defined geometry that can be parametrised, so everybody can do a door and and window as they want it to be, and we need walls superior to the rest of applications, because our ones are technically flawless, but too limited in the geometry for a modern BIM usage.

 

And for God's sake stop the game of the special groups and their blind environment (being this a part of the plug-in inflexibility).

 

 

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4 minutes ago, _c_ said:

 

We need user defined geometry that can be parametrised, so everybody can do a door and and window as they want it to be

 

Along the same lines, there was some discussion earlier about extrusion-based window geometry and profiles in general:

Details of almost anything can be obtained from the manufacturer, these parametrised via extrusions etc. might be one way forward. However I'd take any improvements, even incremental ones. As long as there would be some signs of life.

 

Currently the end result is way too far off the real built window. And there is no time to custom-model each different window considering the economic constraints of an architect's practice.

 

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To elaborate further on the correctedness of the window (or any) object - there is no option for an architect to produce a drawing that is wrong, or "almost right". Construction drawings need to be  perfect. Otherwise one might get a hefty bill from the client. This is something that people in some other industries don't always get. Even some architects who have not run an office of their own don't get this. You really do get in trouble for erroneous drawings. An accidental mouse scroll in an Autocad paperspace viewport is a prime example, cost one practice about USD 50 000 due to wrong scale (yes there are ways and clauses to avoid these, but still).

 

A presentation can be schematic, but the information it conveys must be correct and there must be no room for any misunderstandings.

 

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I wonder how many here talking about windows are American architects.  To me all this fuss about a window looking precise in a floor plan or even a section is somewhat of a waste.  We put in a generic window, we want it to look right in elevation, close at least and then refer to precise 2D details which can be very detailed and precise.  Of course I don't speak for all US architects but over many years that is what I have done.  

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2 hours ago, Helm said:

we want it to look right in elevation, close at least

 

Even that's a struggle with the current tools.

 

It's actually impossible to get many window configurations really to look right in elevation.

 

But even when you can get "close" enough in elevation, the process to get there is slow, painful, and full of unexplained bugs. Ever spent some time chasing your tail around the "lock sash" routine in the "custom sash" options in an attempt to get things the right size and in the right place?

 

Sometimes it's literally faster to model from scratch with some basic extrudes.

Edited by line-weight

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And by the way, as far as doing the "precise" details in 2D - I often see these done by importing a crazily over-detailed frame section from a manufacturer, resulting in a messy, hard to read drawing that often fails to actually understand or communicate how that frame needs to interface with the opening. It looks "detailed" but the important details aren't there.

 

In actual fact, a simplified version of the window frame profile is often perfectly adequate and also clearer. So, I have now done a few window details where I've modelled the window in 3d (from scratch) - but only to the level of detail really required. I've found that this can then be used as the basis of pretty good interface details, cut directly from the model. Actually it doesn't necessarily take all that much more time than fiddling around with multiple 2d drawings manually - the big downside is that it's not parametric, so there's more work when you have to adjust the window size, or have multiple windows of that type. A decent, fully flexible window tool that would let us use our own profiles, get everything set up to the level of detail that's actually necessary, and then apply that to a number of different configurations is what I'd like (not something that asks me whether I want "prairie style", whatever that is).

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8 hours ago, JMR said:

 

Along the same lines, there was some discussion earlier about extrusion-based window geometry and profiles in general:

 

 

Look, this goes into the category limit by "plug-in inflexibility".

 

To do the extrusion based geometry, you cannot use a point plug-in (as windows and doors currently are), you must use a path plug-in. These allow to store a path and a profile. The most basic example of this is the Chain Extrude tool and relies on a very old technology, still from Minicad times.

 

Using a path plug-in, you would be compelled to draw the window shape as a path in plan, and stick it in vertical on the wall somehow. Every time you want to edit that shape, you would have to somehow dis-insert it from the wall, edit it, and re-insert it. 3D paths do exist, but they are unusable. 

 

Alternatively, you'd have to set up a huge interface to manage the path etc. etc, which is I suppose the way they did the sexy Benelux windows.

But we want it directly editable, don't we?

 

And back to the category limit: wall insertion is weak in VW.

I know because I did it. I did implement a wall hole just as you say.

Edited by _c_

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6 hours ago, Helm said:

I wonder how many here talking about windows are American architects.  To me all this fuss about a window looking precise in a floor plan or even a section is somewhat of a waste.  

 

But you see John, they sell it here too. International offices cannot use a localised version because the office language is English.

And the UK architects don't even have a choice.

 

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6 hours ago, _c_ said:

 

But you see John, they sell it here too. International offices cannot use a localised version because the office language is English.

And the UK architects don't even have a choice.

 

Well that is very interesting.  We do a lot of traveling around in our camper, even now thinking about making a mobile office.  As in this last long weekend we were surrounded by Dutch, German and Austrians, here in an Italian camp site.  The thing we count on is that most Europeans have at least a basic working knowledge of English.  In other words it would only make sense that any localized version of VW have an English language option, given the free movement of professionals (sorry Brexit friends) in the EU.  

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A simple example of the half-bakedness of the standard window tool: Window interior trim. It's not built like VW wants...

 

kuva.thumb.png.c11c11a80cd82da924d0b7779e7b8068.png

Edited by JMR
typos
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On 7/3/2019 at 8:49 AM, Bas Vellekoop said:

I shared this before but the Belgian / Dutch version has a nice combined door and window tool with allot possibilities. 

Maybe VW can find some inspiration in this tool 🙂

 

Ability to combine doors and windows and change the type of door an window for each section individually:

 

image.thumb.png.e0efdea380046014bca3ef96f0836a11.png

 

Ability create all kind of (overhead)doors:

 

image.thumb.png.d967fa9ca0834a58a4cf3a1ec715b20b.png

 

All kind of sliding doors and the ability to change how the different sections slide.

 

image.thumb.png.1295a59119859e6e7717d8d2e693f21e.png

 

The most common wall details correctly drawn in 2d and 3d.

This is possible for the horizontal en vertical sections:

 

image.thumb.png.385bb13f787c3860b21d35339f254c20.png

 

 

 

 

I've got the same Hybrid Vectorworks as you have. The potentials and option of this window/ door tool are great but there are also down sides of this tool:

 

First of all inserting window/ door is not intuitive as the 'american' version window/ door tool:
- you have to set the direction of the window (facing inside/ outside/ left/ right) the through the preference dialog box. The direction is based on the direction of the wall direction.

- The tool is not interactive as in, you insert window/ door in the wall and then hoover with you mouse to set the direction.

- It's not possible to use the Flip tool (there is a flip button, but this is not suppose to be there), which is a great shame!!!!!!

- To change most of the settings you cannot change them in the 'object info' palette, but you need to go to the preferences dialog box: with no 'preview' option anywhere in the dialog box.

 

- Using 'saved set' or parameters plug in: I tried to save the set, this will listen to direction of wall and there is no way to flip direction (only to reverse the wall direction... but then I need to rejoin walls)

- I tried to use the eyedropper tool to copy parameters of plug-in, this copies the everything including the position, size and direction (inside/ outside) because it will listen to direction of wall (effect on the placement of exterior and interior sill).


Sorry to be so negative, but here I am struggling with a drawing for a bungalow, with a lot of different walls, doors and windows (in different directions, positions and sizes).

 

 

I feel this is taking me too long..... Am I missing something, is there an easier way to approach this tool please?

 

2021-02-27 11_33_32-Window.png

2021-02-27 11_04_46-Window.png

2021-02-27 11_10_35-Window.png

Edited by C.T
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The Window/Door tool in the english version it's a shame compared with that window/tool
Sadly in Vectorworks North America there is no will to improve in the slightest the tool, so we can only drool over the samples you share

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9 minutes ago, DBrown said:

The Window/Door tool in the english version it's a shame compared with that window/tool
Sadly in Vectorworks North America there is no will to improve in the slightest the tool, so we can only drool over the samples you share

 

Sorry too hear that too.

You are right... I'll need to take the bad with the good.

 

Would be great Vectorworks worldwide can appreciate the importance of the tool and put some effort into merging the good of both.
 

Edited by C.T
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Yes, if you check the French, the Dutch, the Australian and the Italian versions of Vectorworks, the Window/Door tool is impressive, the English version tool is a joke compared to those other localized versions..

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Posted (edited)

I would appreciate to have control on detailing definition into the windows/doors tools as an improvement.

I mean that any composant could be defined as visible in low/medium/high detailing views by the user.

 

PS i am a french user and using the dutch/benelux/french version of the tool

Edited by Renaud

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps all these good window plugins for other markets is why the default version has been so neglected.

Edited by Christiaan

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They certainly seem to like the plugin as it is, as shocking as it might be to us.

The reputation damage done by selling the international version as it is, is huge.

 

And it's not a matter of adding configurations, it's a matter of how the tools draw in 2D, at least here. An environment where one barely speak German.

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Posted (edited)
On 9/24/2020 at 3:50 PM, shorter said:

When do you have cause to use the barn door tool, Christiaan?

 

We did a scheme just before the release of this feature with wall-mounted sliding doors for a bin store and this would have been handy. But my point wasn't that it's a useful configuration to have added; rather that the execution of it is nicely done.

 

On 9/24/2020 at 4:25 PM, line-weight said:

 

I don't really agree. It's another example of "add something new" instead of "fix the broken old stuff".

 

I agree. Priorities all seem topsy turvy from my point of view. If anything was to be added to the door tool I would have voted for folding sliding doors. My point in praising the 'barn door' configuration was really only about the execution; it's nicely done, not half-baked.

Edited by Christiaan

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1 hour ago, Christiaan said:

I agree. Priorities all seem topsy turvy from my point of view. If anything was to be added to the door tool I would have voted for folding sliding doors. My point in praising the 'barn door' configuration was really only about the execution; it's nicely done, not half-baked.

 

I am fully of your opinion: whoever decides that Irrigation and Barn doors are a priority should please be tied up to a screen displaying non-stop our rants.

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And I expressly ask for this victim not to be Matt Panzer.

The Barn door, albeit the most ridiculously named building thing in VW, was done very well.

 

BTW, did anyone ever quantified, for real, the image damage done by that name -Barn- outside USA? Did anyone? 

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