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Window and Door Tool maturity


Christiaan

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It seems to me that we are all using very innovative workarounds and managing to produce our output in many different ways, this is only required when the drawing package (in this case Vectorworks) fails to provide the tools necessary or provides the tools but they are flawed. 

No software in the world can be all things to all people, so when we reach the limits of the software we need to create something ourselves, but this thread is not about complicated output, it is about a window and door tool provided release after release that clearly fails in its basic design.  If the tool worked properly and had the required flexibility, it could generate windows which adhered to all national standards and requirements. 

Still nothing from the Vectorworks team on this subject.    ☹️

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The most efficient workaround I have for solving the problems described above is

  • create a wall only for the insulation above
  • create the class for the insulation above
  • create the needed wall holes with a special tool (I need proper IFC and Wall Features are too difficult to edit / map to IFC)
  •  
  • load by reference in another file dedicated to plans: override class attributes as needed
  • load by reference in another file dedicated to sections and elevations: override class attributes as needed

This grants perfect plans, perfect sections, perfect DWG exports, perfect IFC export, perfect quantity take offs.

AND no maintenance whatsoever.

So this also covers other issues, such as efficient and instantly usable backups.

 

I refuse to annotate sections and viewports but -for a few corrections- because

  • I seldom can have 1 file for one project
  • don't want to be burdened with transferring annotions across viewports
  • don't like obsolescent viewports
  • need an archive politic that meets our requirements

etc. etc.

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1 hour ago, _c_ said:

The most efficient workaround I have for solving the problems described above is

  • create a wall only for the insulation above
  • create the class for the insulation above
  • create the needed wall holes with a special tool (I need proper IFC and Wall Features are too difficult to edit / map to IFC)
  •  
  • load by reference in another file dedicated to plans: override class attributes as needed
  • load by reference in another file dedicated to sections and elevations: override class attributes as needed

This grants perfect plans, perfect sections, perfect DWG exports, perfect IFC export, perfect quantity take offs.

AND no maintenance whatsoever.

So this also covers other issues, such as efficient and instantly usable backups.

 

I refuse to annotate sections and viewports but -for a few corrections- because

  • I seldom can have 1 file for one project
  • don't want to be burdened with transferring annotions across viewports
  • don't like obsolescent viewports
  • need an archive politic that meets our requirements

etc. etc.

 

If you are managing to make this all work, that is a very impressive technical achievement. It seems that making it work requires some specialist coding skills and perhaps the resources of a larger company... things that not all of us are able to have, unfortunately.

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2 hours ago, zoomer said:

don't you have issues with Auto Wall Connections mixing up between

Just don't connect them. To prevent this you can disable the autoconnect-feature temporaly or group the insulation-walls. Wether the walls are connected or not you can still use the paint-bucket-mode of the room-tool and similar functions of connected roof/floors etc. Beside own perfectionism nothing forces you to have walls connected.

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The Connections help to adapt connected Walls when you move a Wall 🙂

 

And you create the openings for your secondary Walls by your scaled 1 m

insertion Symbols ?

 

 

Basically I would always prefer to provide insulation packages as a separate

layer, like in reality. Could save from tons of Wall Styles and connection problems.

But it is not possible even in Bricscad. No multi-Wall cutting from insertion elements.

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As of wall joins, I have to disagree. They used to be bad, they are now really strong. There has been a huge effort for fixing all conceivable issues, and it paid off, on my opinion. 

 

The trick here is to do these 3 things below. Components with the same fill will be prioritised, the rest will be joined capped. Even the most abstruse joins look well.

When you don't want auto-join for whatever reason, you click it away using its toggle.

  • set up core compone nts with some system

292692405_ScreenShot2020-09-22at19_24_45.thumb.png.3ceab077f2f36cba10a05ce7b67877f9.png

  • enable auto-join 

893440785_ScreenShot2020-09-22at19_23_46.thumb.png.d6a885dead259569ab97e91ddc686c61.png

 

  • enable connected wall mode  (keeps things connected when you move a wall by drag)

250362529_ScreenShot2020-09-22at19_28_16.thumb.png.8360503f50ba91b0b2a4258dcb69a510.png

 

When these settings are true, you can always obtain a perfect join simply by pressing ctrl/cmd + J

 

48740368_ScreenShot2020-09-22at19_27_07.thumb.png.3e15ac371cc3dd4d83f63dd8edd29e48.png

 

Edited by _c_
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3 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

If you are managing to make this all work, that is a very impressive technical achievement. It seems that making it work requires some specialist coding skills and perhaps the resources of a larger company... things that not all of us are able to have, unfortunately.

 

Aside of implementing special wall openings, anyone can and should use the method above described for efficiency.

But yes, my line of work is to go to offices who need batch editors and special BIM staff, I can make things happen fast where you'd need weeks of work.

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26 minutes ago, _c_ said:

As of wall joins, I have to disagree. They used to be bad, they are now really strong.

 

 

I have no problem with standard wall joining.

It is OK.

 

But there are special situations where Wall Connection Tools fails,

like when you try to connect 4 different Walls at one point and such.

Depending on situation you may solve that by adding Columns or

Wall End Caps - or not.

 

But I was talking about situations with Insulation packages where

Exterior Walls extend into the Interior and vice versa, where you

therefore have to duplicate lots of Wall Styles of basically the same

Wall Structure.

I often have those situations where a Stair Case Core sits half in half

out of the Building. And had a special Situation where such a connection

was not possible the way you want to see it in your Plan.

 

Separating the Structure as built in "Rohbau" from the Insulation package

"Ausbau" that may come later, would simplify Wall Connections, amount

of Wall Styles and reliability.

But as said, so far nowhere available in BIM Apps (?)

 

 

For the simple Window and Door PIOs in VW US,

for my visualization purposes I was lucky so far that I could put my Windows

at the Insulation Component of multi-ply Walls so that the Wall openings "Laibungen"

looked OK.

In more complex situations the US Windows would need manual custom Geometry

for each Opening like in your case. Similar for Door PIO.

I think German or Benelux PIOs offer much more control over the 3D Geometry in VW.

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17 hours ago, zoomer said:

multi-Wall cutting

Woul'd be really helpful, but it sure is hard to implement without impacting on the performance too much.

 

17 hours ago, zoomer said:

And you create the openings for your secondary Walls by your scaled 1 m

insertion Symbols ?

In this case I woul'd just use multiple walls for each height. Draw them in 2D and change it's height in the OIP. As these insulations are added in a very late phase of planning, I wouldn't be worried too much about moving walls. When the geometry is more complicated, I'd also consider drawing them with the 3D-tools and put them in a symbol or auto-hybrid-object.

I tend to avoid scaled symbols as soon as ifc-export is a thing as they don't export scaled. At least that was the case with my last export of these objects. Nonetheless they are very handy in early planning phases where export isn't a thing and you do a lot of changes.

 

16 hours ago, zoomer said:

like when you try to connect 4 different Walls

I'd love to have the opportunity to manipulate the wall components individually just to solve these rare situations, when the standard connection fails.

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5 hours ago, herbieherb said:

I tend to avoid scaled symbols as soon as ifc-export is a thing as they don't export scaled. At least that was the case with my last export of these objects.

 

That is good to know.

Didn't think about this.

 

 

5 hours ago, herbieherb said:

I'd love to have the opportunity to manipulate the wall components individually just to solve these rare situations, when the standard connection fails.

 

I remember a situation where it wasn't possible at all by just using Walls.

I am aware of and often use manual component joining tool.

3 or 4 different Walls at one point + a Window flush with the corner.

I think I tried all possible combinations at a lot of example duplicates.

Either Component Joining was ignored or crashed those at the other side

or the whole Wall Connection switched.

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I filed countless bug and wish reports starting 2007, as of the wall insertion of doors and windows. 13 years of filing reports.

There is no response whatsoever.

 

They are waiting for some core technology to happen at some application level, this will be soon and we are not going to get what we wish.

Not in the form we want it. 

 

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Whatever the reason, it seems clear VW don't want to discuss the window and door tools, why they are not maintained and why we aren't allowed access to the distributor-specific versions that ave been developed.

 

Can we crowdfund getting some third party ones written? I reckon a lot of people would be willing to pay for them, if they were decent. And developed in close consultation with real world users. I would pay.

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But we all do pay! our annual VSS. And surely it is better if tools are within the main code rather than a plugin, it really should not be beyond the vectorworks team to get hold of the problem and solve it even if it means buying in the expertise to do it. 

If they would only come out and say they are not up to it (or say anything on the subject at all) then crowdfunding would be a great idea, anything as long as it gets sorted!!

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9 hours ago, _c_ said:

I filed countless bug and wish reports starting 2007, as of the wall insertion of doors and windows. 13 years of filing reports.

There is no response whatsoever.

 

I've got the impression that the employees from Vectorworks whom read the forums requests, either don't report the submitted requests or if they do they get lost inside Vectorworks, it's outrageous to see requests from 2007 not taken into account !!! 

 

16 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Can we crowdfund getting some third party ones written? I reckon a lot of people would be willing to pay for them, if they were decent. And developed in close consultation with real world users. I would pay.

That's an awesome idea!!! or maybe we can ask the German or French distributor to make the plugins for sale in English!

Edited by DBrown
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I had something similar with Landmark with regard to georeferencing, it took a few years but things wished for got fixed and use of the EPSG catalog got implemented. Also because there was a practical use benefit for every user using georeferencing.

 

With the door/window tool my guess is that it is more intended as a "prop" to indicate a generic door/window style and its dimensions and not an actual door as it is going to be installed. It would be difficult to make a use case for the latter as it probably could be done better by the door/window manufacturers. That doesn't mean the odd things that don't make sense shouldn't be fixed but it does mean it will always be a generic tool because otherwise there are way too many variables.

 

So I'd for now rather see it updated by fixing the odd things that are clearly wrong/don't make sense so that it at least looks right and then have access to the local door/window tools that adhere to local standards at a reasonable cost for the more detailed views. As some user on this forum used to call it, you don't want to design McMansions after all (i.e. thirteen in a dozen designs)

 

Why VW is so reluctant to let us know what the issue is is a mystery to me as well.

Edited by Art V
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20 minutes ago, Art V said:

So I'd for now rather see it updated by fixing the odd things that are clearly wrong/don't make sense so that it at least looks right and then have access to the local door/window tools that adhere to local standards at a reasonable cost for the more detailed views. As some user on this forum used to call it, you don't want to design McMansions after all (i.e. thirteen in a dozen designs)

 

Agreed just to be able to insert a window with a sill in the position that has been specified in the parametric box would be acceptable to start with, surely that is not too much to ask after all these years of trying. 

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3 minutes ago, Art V said:

Why VW is so reluctant to let us know that the issue is is a mystery to me as well.

Yeah. The general silence on those quintessential tools is one of the most puzzling parts about Vectorworks for me. Nothing seems to get as much attention in this forum as these two tools, plus stairs, from the users. A rough roadmap would clear things up a bit. Maybe the walls and components have to be updated first, before some real change for the other elements are possible.🤷‍♂️

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On 7/1/2019 at 12:05 PM, Christiaan said:

This thread is intended to bring together the features needed to bring the window and door tools to what I (and some UK architects I worked with on these) consider maturity. These tools have been neglected for too long. These aren't interface improvements, nice-to-haves or radical ideas, but rather basic features (from a user's point of view) needed to model windows for the vast majority of our projects (mostly medium-sized residential buildings in UK/Europe).

 

The last set of items are the interface improvements, nice-to-haves or radical changes that we'd love to have but I've posted here by way of contrast to the basic features we need for window/door tool maturity.

 

Window Tool:

 

Additional window sash types required

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49476-additional-window-sash-types-required/

 

Additional window panel types required

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49477-additional-window-panel-types-required/

 

Window sill improvements

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49479-window-sill-improvements/

 

Control attributes of individual window panes/panels

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49478-control-attributes-of-individual-window-panespanels/

 

Brick header and decorative window lintels

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49481-brick-header-and-decorative-window-lintels/

 

Support for 3D 'Wall Detail' component returns at windows

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/50263-support-for-3d-wall-detail-component-returns-at-windows/

 

 

Door Tool:

 

Ability to define gaps for Door Tool

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49508-ability-to-define-gaps-for-door-tool/

 

Frame stops for Door Tool

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49502-frame-stops-for-door-tool/

 

Custom ID tags for windows and doors

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/51066-custom-id-tags-for-windows-and-doors/

 

Bi-folding sliding doors for Door Tool

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49506-bi-folding-sliding-doors-for-door-tool/

 

Meeting Stiles for Door Tool

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49503-meeting-stiles-for-door-tool/

 

More refined control over complex door opening arrangements

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49504-more-refined-control-over-complex-door-opening-arrangements/

 

 

Window/Door tool interface improvements:

 

Ability to configure doors within the Window Tool

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49369-ability-to-configure-doors-within-the-window-tool/

 

Traditional window schedules

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49480-traditional-window-schedules/

 

2D front view vector-based door schedules

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49364-2d-front-view-vector-based-door-schedules/

 

Ability to define Wall Hole Component of Window/Door Objects

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/50187-ability-to-define-wall-hole-component-of-windowdoor-objects/

 

Ability to manipulate windows/doors directly in model

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49482-ability-to-manipulate-windowsdoors-directly-in-model/

 

Ability to define our own sash types and markers

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/50577-ability-to-define-our-own-sash-types-and-markers/

 

Need better way to hide Window ID Tags irrelevant to current elevation

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/53910-need-better-way-to-hide-window-id-tags-irrelevant-to-current-elevation/

 

Undo function for Custom Sash Options

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/51103-undo-function-for-custom-sash-options/

 

Don't forget the Curtain Wall tool needs the ability to specify spandrels as a default, not as an afterthought.

 

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1 hour ago, line-weight said:

Whatever the reason, it seems clear VW don't want to discuss the window and door tools, why they are not maintained and why we aren't allowed access to the distributor-specific versions that ave been developed.

 

To be fair the new barn door config added to the door tool is very well done and hopefully a harbinger of things to come. We just need more of it. Matt Panzer has also been great at answering my questions on doors and windows. It all a comes down to limited resources and the competing desires of different stake holders.

 

In my view they've got that balance wrong for many years regarding the windows/doors and stairs, but I would love to sit in on the meetings that prioritise these things and see if I still think the same thing. Pretty safe bet I would actually.

 

On the distributor front, perhaps those distributors don't actually want to have to deal with world-wide support for their localised tools?

Edited by Christiaan
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48 minutes ago, DBrown said:

I've got the impression that the employees from Vectorworks whom read the forums requests, either don't report the submitted requests or if they do they get lost inside Vectorworks, it's outrageous to see requests from 2007 not taken into account !!!

 

Oh where's Jim where you need him. He would give you a very good explanation of where the bottlenecks are in the process and how they are improving them (and they are improving them).

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46 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

 

To be fair the new barn door config added to the door tool is very well done and hopefully a harbinger of things to come.

 

I don't really agree. It's another example of "add something new" instead of "fix the broken old stuff".

 

I'm pretty sure that a vastly greater number of people would have benefited, from the time put into making a new configuration, instead having been put into fixing just some of the things that are wrong with the basic door types. It's much more likely that a building will have 100 basic hinged doors and one barn-type door, than the other way around.

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The German VW is very good and very much liked by professionals. The only limit being the language and the structural limits of VW (wall insertion etc.) but they did huge things to workaround that, because the German Architect is very demanding, very technical and not only sketching.

 

I am all for a mix of the best from the distributors.

 

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