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Jim W

WWDC 2019 - Mac Pro Hopes

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, JRA-Vectorworks-CAD said:

don't know if any of my hundreds of architectural clients would be able to justify such a huge expense

 

I think the target group is more in oil, medicine, financial, AI and such industries.

 

There is no more headless multipurpose Pro(sumer) device in Apples lineup

since (2015 ?) trash can, already restricted, went outdated.

Prosumer basically starts with models from $3000 upwards with Mini, iMac,

Macbook and already too expensive, because of component choice, iMac Pro.

With all their flaws and restrictions.

 

51 minutes ago, JRA-Vectorworks-CAD said:

and future jealousy of anyone how gets one

 

I think that's Pro Mac Pro's main purpose 😉

 

You were moaning, we delivered.

Here it is. Buy if you can.

Edited by zoomer
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@zoomer Agree with that, but Apples focus was always previously on the creative market like graphics, architecture, designers and video production. I would imagine all the  "oil, medicine, financial, AI and such industries" having been using PC's for years already and would be unlikely to make the switch.

 

Yes, I was moaning a bit  (and jesting a little) as I must have spent tens of thousands on Apple over the years and now feel its harder to justify the investment on incremental upgrades, and the big leaps are so expensive! 

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I didn't meant you with moaning.

It was all former Mac Pro users starting with trash can release,

which got worse over time with Apple abandoning trash can.

Like on Macrumors and such forums.

 

Yes, every pragmatic professional Pro User switched to PC years ago,

when Apple offers started lacking. As you said, those industries may

have always used PCs.

It is just us fan boys who were deeply convinced from Apple's philosophy.

We did not give up hope for better and waited during these hard times.

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Posted (edited)

@zoomer Thanks Zoomer. Its sometimes hard to get across the right tone, and I was trying to be humorous, but also make a serious point as a previously hardcore "Apple Fanboy". My sons ( both hardcore PC gamers ( who created their own Mincraft sever), have worked me hard and began to convince me that the "PC / Dark Side" is faster, better value for money and these days does everything Mac OS can do (albeit not quite so elegantly). Anyway, I think the point I was making is that even " Fan boys" have their limits of sanity when it comes to the new Mac Pro offering and pricing! Its been fun seeing what other think. ( I just wish I spent half the money I spent on Mac on Apple share back in the day!)

Edited by JRA-Vectorworks-CAD

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2 hours ago, JRA-Vectorworks-CAD said:

@rgcn

 

As an apple user and HUGE fanatic for over 20 years I am quite shocked by the price hikes, and don't know if any of my hundreds of architectural clients (I teach Vectorworks Professionally) would be able to justify such a huge expense, especially once you start to "Up Spec with SSD, RAM and GPU's" You could easily spend more money than a decent car or holiday of a lifetime would cost (for you and your family) so you really have to justify the time and money the investment would save!

 

I would be hard pressed to find an architect who needs the kind of power this new Mac Pro offers, especially the display.  I think it falls exclusively as a want for those of us in AEC and an amazing value for video editors.  The main selling point of this new machine is the video production capabilities after all.

 

In large firms with dedicated 3D Rendering, Video, and GIS departments, it is not uncommon to see $15k to $25k workstations.  In those workflows, the machine cost ROI is rapid.  This new Pro is not for typical BIM or drafting technicians, the softwares are not really designed to take advantage of the power and the work itself is generally not that taxing on the computer (if you train people how to model properly).  For the rest of us who spend most of our time on design or design administration, an Ipad would likely serve 90% of our needs 🙂.

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I suffer since years too.

Made me even try Windows again.

I love to be able to build my own hardware but quickly realized

Windows is no alternative for me.

And the new Pro Mac Pro + Metal support announcements did

not really convince me that I should stay with Apple.

Although the Pro Mac Pro is far better than I expected.

 

One one hand it is (and looks) not 100% of what I want,

on the other hand it doesn't make much sense to triple my

hardware budget in general.

But the more I test and play with Linux, the more I get confident

with it and excited about it.

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39 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

who needs the kind of power this new Mac Pro offers, especially the display.

 

That is my problem.

The Display is cool. I would not mind using it.

But what holds them from bringing a nice 27" 4K IPS Monitor in a nice enclosure

and all Thunderbolt goodies for a reasonable Apple price.

 

For the Pro Mac Pro power,

I want such power for Rendering.

I am ok with the GPU solutions, although the speculated prices may kick me out by far.

And for my beloved CPU Rendering, someone mentioned the 28 core Xeon would be

around $6000 and already be outdated by new Threadrippers in a few months before

Pro Mac Pro or these W Xeons even released. I could never do that when there are

already 2990WX 32 core CPUs laying around for $1800.

And someone mentioned the CPUs would be soldered. Then you couldn't even go with

the base model for now, to start saving money for your components the next 2 years.

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Slightly off topic (windows fan here, so I'm keeping quiet), are 4k monitors useful for VW/C4d?  I recall seeing some bugginess reported when they first came out.  I'd be interested in getting a higher res display if it worked smoothly.

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Posted (edited)

For me a 4k Monitor is great for VW and my other 3D Apps.

I think the problem with VW was never Highres Monitors,

but using "multiple" Monitors at the same time 🙂

 

I bought a cheap 24" Dell IPS just for my PC testing.

That is such a great Monitor !

And even looks pretty ok. 4k offers enough space and it looks

so nice and sharp (Windows and Linux only).

 

If I only knew this before, I would have gone with a 28" 4k Dell instead.

As larger Monitors are still more comfortable for old eyes.

Edited by zoomer

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3 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

Slightly off topic (windows fan here, so I'm keeping quiet), are 4k monitors useful for VW/C4d?  I recall seeing some bugginess reported when they first came out.  I'd be interested in getting a higher res display if it worked smoothly.

I think display quality is the single most important thing in a computer for what I do.  We spend so much time staring at these screens, it pays to have high quality, if not simply for the joy of looking at something beautiful.  Big screen with high resolution = less eye strain.  VW looks great on an IMac or a 32” 4K display on the MacBook Pro.

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I work w/ two monitors.  So what I'm hearing is that you can't mix resolutions.  If I got a 4k monitor, my secondary would also need to be 4k?

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14 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

That is my problem.

The Display is cool. I would not mind using it.

But what holds them from bringing a nice 27" 4K IPS Monitor in a nice enclosure

and all Thunderbolt goodies for a reasonable Apple price.

I would drop a couple of grand on the display you describe, but I doubt they would make it because there are so many quality offerings by other companies.  I was at Costco earlier in the week and tried out a consumer grade 32” LG for $350.  Displays are amazing  compared to 5 years ago and inexpensive.  I suspect Apple’s interest in competing in the high quality/value end of the spectrum..  Remember the days of the $2000 21” CRT that would require added structural support to your desk?  No we can hang a 32” on a gypsum wall like a picture frame.

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9 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

I work w/ two monitors.  So what I'm hearing is that you can't mix resolutions.  If I got a 4k monitor, my secondary would also need to be 4k?

I’m no expert, but wouldn’t that be dependent on your OS and graphics card(s)?

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I am not experienced with dual monitors and VW.

I gave them up when I had my 30" Cinema Display.

 

So no clue if similar monitors will work better in dual configs

than different monitors.

Just that I often saw problem threads here that were only related

to people with multiple monitors.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

I work w/ two monitors.  So what I'm hearing is that you can't mix resolutions.  If I got a 4k monitor, my secondary would also need to be 4k?

You can mix resolutions, its very common. In some OSes you have to have both of them have the same scaling of the UI, but resolutions can be separate without issue.

When it comes to Vectorworks, IF you mix resolutions, then your experience will be poor, as Vectorworks will have to pick the scaling of one monitor or the other which would make it look a mess on the other. 

I almost always have dual monitors at minimum in my workflow, but I use Vectorworks on a single display.

 

34 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

Slightly off topic (windows fan here, so I'm keeping quiet), are 4k monitors useful for VW/C4d?

Oh yeah. If you have the graphics power to handle it, its great. Much more room for the UI, the OS elements can be made smaller while still remaining clear. However, I do not wear glasses and have great vision. I have heard from many people with vision concerns that they didnt benefit as much from 4k because they couldnt tolerate the letters being as small as it was possible to make them.

Edited by Jim W
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@jeff prince I am using 2 32" 4K BENQ displays running from my Macbook Pro, now using an external Razer Core X GPU with Vega 64 and its works a treat.

 

The 32" BENQ monitors are matt finish unlike shiny iMac screen and are really good value and recommended, and have great features and inputs Galore. The PD3200U is the better quality one but I cant really tell the difference not the second screen. If you are interested heres some benchmark and testing of the razor Core.

 

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-06-05 at 16.35.35.png

Screen Shot 2019-06-05 at 16.35.31.png

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58 minutes ago, JRA-Vectorworks-CAD said:

@jeff prince Nicely expressed point of view and I agree!

 

I think what you are doing is amazing, the work is always beautiful.  I also think there is a huge market for teaching your elegant modeling techniques to the people in the trenches.  It is common for BIM and CAD technicians to go to an extreme level of unnecessary detail at the expense of efficiency and production of quality drawings.  I think this is due to software marketing and the technical nature of those doing the work.  I ran into this problem in my previous role.  The technical staff was making models that would bring their computers to their knees.  I tried to teach them how to achieve an appropriate level of detail to get the work done, but they typically didn’t listen out of fear of underperforming.  So, I started assigning tasks to them and then duplicating the work in parallel, showing them the results.  Slowly, things began improving.  Training is essential.

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@JRA-Vectorworks-CAD thanks for sharing your configuration.  That’s one thing I love about this forum now that I don’t have an IT department supporting my decisions 🙂

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, zoomer said:

someone mentioned the 28 core Xeon would be

around $6000

 

It was $7500.

The cheapest 28 core Xeon I can buy here is about 10,000 €.

The cheaper related single slot XEON Ws only go up to 18 cores here for now,

where 18 core Xeon W means already 3,000 €.

 

Ouch :

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/6/3/18651208/apple-mac-pro-how-much-top-spec-price-estimate-ballpark

Edited by zoomer

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7 hours ago, JRA-Vectorworks-CAD said:

It almost feel like its a strange dream (nightmare) where we just went back 10 years in the past and created another G5 tower type computer which was large enough to be upgradable and had decent cooling to run properly. ( I have 3 sitting redundant in my office) Then you find yourself 10 years in the future in terms of pricing and Apple have morphed into a high end computer jewellery company like Rolex developing OP products for the rich! Don't even get me started on the £999 monitor stand! The best thing about this has been the hilarious Cheesegrater memes.

 

Unless you want an all-in-one, there's a huge gap between the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini. All we wanted was a user serviceable machine that we can upgrade with our own components, including NVIDA GPU's and AMD CPU's. Instead we got a FU on wheels.

 

Clearly, their POV is "if you want to put your own guts in it, we're gonna charge you more for the base. How do you like them Apples?"

 

And the monitor is a joke. So many better options for CAD pro's... Would be nice if they brought back an antiglare screen to the Mac lineup though.

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4 hours ago, jeff prince said:

In large firms with dedicated 3D Rendering, Video, and GIS departments, it is not uncommon to see $15k to $25k workstations.  In those workflows, the machine cost ROI is rapid.  This new Pro is not for typical BIM or drafting technicians, the softwares are not really designed to take advantage of the power and the work itself is generally not that taxing on the computer (if you train people how to model properly).  For the rest of us who spend most of our time on design or design administration, an Ipad would likely serve 90% of our needs 🙂.

 

While that is true, none of the previous Mac Pro's were priced so out of reach for professionals. Rationalizing that this version "isn't for us" is to forget that every prior version was.

 

As someone who's getting ridding of my iMac Pro (all in one is not for me), my options are Mac Pro, Mac Mini, and MistakeBook Pro.

 

So, unless they're about to surprise us with a new modular desktop, they just hosed most of their pro users.

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3 hours ago, JRA-Vectorworks-CAD said:

I am using 2 32" 4K BENQ displays running from my Macbook Pro, now using an external Razer Core X GPU with Vega 64 and its works a treat.

 

2nd the BenQ 32" antiglare monitors. Been using them for years, and turned many people onto them.

 

That said, my dream monitor would be a 40" curved display because:

  • 32" is not large enough to view at full 4k (see attached screenshot)
  • > 32" you have to physically roll your chair from side to side, so curved is nice (the trick is tilting it exactly 90º to your eyeballs)
  • > 40" starts to pixelate 4k

 

Screen Shot 2019-06-05 at 12.13.01 PM.png

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4 hours ago, zoomer said:

For me a 4k Monitor is great for VW and my other 3D Apps.

 

 

@JuanP are there plans to increase VW font size for 4k displays? Palette fonts have been microscopic for a good 4 years now...

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I usually budget for a machine to last 5 years, so I'm hoping by Autumn 2020 they may have a "value engineered" version.

 

As for sticker shock, I think we paid about this much for a toaster mac in the '80's. For some reason (we were likely to young & cocky) we had less problem with clients paying for stuff than we do now. Colour illustrations were expensive things that were almost alway warmly welcomed. Now clients have a dog house built want a 3D rendered walkthrough and have that as part of the package.

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