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willofmaine

Flippin' Flipped Doors

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Same door style, same custom leaf (by style!).  The correct door (Image 04) is not actually in its wall.  The "huh" door (Image 05) is in its wall.  If it's flipped to swing in, all's good.  But it's an egress door, and both my client and the codes want it to swing out.  But when it swings out, the vision panel goes to the wrong side.  Why?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?  I discussed this issue with Tech Support over THREE YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!  Please make it so that custom leafs have a consistent orientation with respect to the hinge & strike sides of a door.  Please FIX Vectorworks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  VWIS071

04-Right-1707-068W.png

05-Huh-1707-068W.png

06-Settings Good-1707-068W.png

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This seems to very clearly be a bug. I would want the leaf orientation in relation to the hinge side of the door to remain consistent. I wonder why it hasn't been addressed.....

 

Kevin

 

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It could be fixed by adding the ability to have doors open in or open out.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm in agreement with Mike. This might seem like a bug to us users but it works as designed as far as I understand it. Vectorworks doors do not understand what inside and outside are. I've been meaning to make a Wishlist item about this issue.

Edited by Christiaan

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15 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

@willofmaine,
What version of Vectorworks are you seeing this in?

Can you send me a file showing the issue

I was easily able to replicate it in VW2019 SP2 using a custom door leaf from the library with a window to one side. How VW handles leaves isn't an issue for symmetrical ones, but anything where an element is to one side will exhibit the problem when the door is flipped.

 

Kevin

 

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Ah, right. Thanks Kevin. I see the issue as well.

@Christiaan, why do you feel this is by design? It looks like a bug to me.

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You could just duplicate the leaf in the resource browser,  open it for editing and rotate it about the centre 180 degrees.   So that you have a left and right leaf.
Also you don't need a custom leaf to create a door with a vision panel,  that option is available in the OIP under leaf.

Capture1.JPG

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That is a solution that won't be obvious to many users.  

 

Surely it would be better to not have work arounds or flipping.  Have the real word options for:

- left and right hand doors.

- doors opening in and out.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Matt Panzer said:

It looks like a bug to me.

 

I'm not an architect, but it logically makes sense for VW to designate one side of the door leaf as the hinge side and consistently mirror/rotate the leaf as needed to keep its orientation consistent with respect to that.

 

1 hour ago, TomKen said:

You could just duplicate the leaf in the resource browser,  open it for editing and rotate it about the centre 180 degrees. 

 

I initially tried that myself. From a practical perspective I'm not sure how doors are bought. I think that would decide which approach would make the most sense. From a purely design/visualization perspective I think it should work as I described above.

 

Kevin

 

Edited by Kevin McAllister

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Matt Panzer said:

@Christiaan, why do you feel this is by design? It looks like a bug to me.

 

Hey Matt, thanks for poking your head in. The reason I think it's by design** is that VW doors (and windows) try to be flexible but just end up being a bit stupid about what's outside/inside, left/right. Flipping a door is a crude way of changing whether a door is a lefthand or righthand opening in or out, and it's this crudeness I think that leads to Will's issue, because some elements of a door don't even realise what they're meant to be doing (which seems to be the case with a custom leaf), because there's no explicit left/right, inward/outward. There's only the ability to flip the object. 

 

Or take for example the door/window ID tag. I've run into a issue when producing traditional elevation window schedules, using isolated instances of my door/window styles. The ID Tag will show on one side of the door/window when it's isolated (the inside) and then show on the other side once it's inserted into a wall (the outside). Again I put this down to an inherent underlying confusion within the door/window objects because outside/inside has never been an explicit setting. It's all fluid depending on whether the object is in a wall and which way it's flipped.

 

There's a related issue with window sashes too. We should be able to specify whether a sash is inward or outward opening and it should stay that way whether we flip the window or not, but that's not the way it behaves. And then there's the Tilt/Turn Custom Sash Option, which has no controls for whether it's left or right hung, and doesn't understand that it should only open inwards. Tilt/Turns only opening inwards but VW will quite happily show a Tilt/Turn opening outwards if you crudely flip it.

 

** This issue could of course be dealt with as an isolated bug, but the problem seems to me to be the underlying design of VW windows and doors, very concisely pointed out by Mike in his comments above. 

Edited by Christiaan

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Hi @Christiaan,

You're right about a lot of these problems regarding flipping and the object deciding what faces inside/outside from the wall. However, a door with a custom door leaf will always keep the same face of the door to outside, but it fails to keep one side of the door as a hinge side. As @TomKen mentioned, you can create vision panels without using a custom leaf - and that leaf flips as expected. The custom leaf should flip in the same way.

I went ahead an entered a bug for this: VB-158845

 

@mike m oz, I agree with you about having real world options as this information may appear on schedules.

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Flawed design or bug, I think we're talking semantics here: it definitely doesn't work as one would reasonably expect it to!  So, thanks Matt, for submitting it as a bug (where hopefully it will get more attention than it might as a "flawed design" Wishlist item...).

 

Yes, ultimately, I created a duplicate, reversed leaf.  But that's twice as much work.  Creating the vision panel using the PIO would have meant no frame for the vision panel.  Eluding "form follows Vectorworks" is a constant battle, but someone's gotta do it...

 

And yes, it seems too often we are slaves to the idea that the left side of a wall is always the outside, and the right side is always the inside.  Control over swing and inside vs. outside, independent of a wall's direction, would be great!

 

@Matt Panzer I'm assuming you don't still need a file showing this issue.  I'm seeing this issue in VW 2018, though I first encountered it in VW 2016.

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The only flipping in the wall should be to define which side of the wall is the outside face of the door.   Whether the door opens in or out and whether it is left hand or right hand should be parameters.

 

Windows should have similar parameters so flipping within the wall is not necessary.

 

When a door or window is selected there needs to be a marker that identifies which is the outside face. 

 

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19 hours ago, willofmaine said:

@Matt Panzer I'm assuming you don't still need a file showing this issue.  I'm seeing this issue in VW 2018, though I first encountered it in VW 2016.

 

No need for a file, @willofmaine. I created one for the bug report.

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