need help with Wall in a symbol

[domer1322]

I can't figure this out ....  I have reason to make a small garage into a hybrid symbol.  When I insert walls inside (using, copy-paste), as part of the symbol, the height of the wall changes immediately upon pasting.  I try to manipulate the heights of various wall components (like the siding) and it does not respond in the same manner as it does when the same wall style type is not part of the symbol.  The same behavior occurs when I simply draw the wall using the wall tool while in the "edit symbol" mode.  I try to change the wall height in the OIP and by using the wall components in the wall style resource.  The height may change, but not in the same way as it does when the wall is not part of the garage symbol.  I try using "stories" but I am a novice at using "stories" and I suspect it is operator error/ignorance.     Can anyone confirm if the action of placing a wall as part of a hybrid symbol results in unpredictable wall and component height behavior ?    .... or ... confirm that i simply don't know what I'm doing.

[Boh]

I have had similar problems using walls in symbols. It seems the wall height reference gets lost in the symbol definition. I think this is because the definition has it's own z height reference.

 

I haven't found a consistent workaround using walls in symbols yet. I'd be interested to hear if someone knows a good way.

 

Could you try making design layer viewports of the garage instead? 

[domer1322]

Boh:  thanks for allowing me to think it isn't all due to my incompetence.   I started with trying design layers and had issues so I tried making the garage as a symbol instead.    I have a surveyed site plan, and I want the units to show on the survey lines as feet-decimals.  However, I also want to make construction drawings of the garage in units "feet-inches". So the survey is on a externally referenced file.   If I make the garage a hybrid symbol, then I can make the garage show up as a 2D rectangle on the survey/site plan, without showing the walls/roof/structure on the 2D image. I thought this would allow me to duplicate the garage symbol and make several different versions, all of which could be suitably located by using the "symbol replace" option.  

 

Unless someone comes up with a solution that I can understand, I'll guess I will have to try something else.  (PS: I'm using VW 2015, so hopefully this "wall in a symbol" issue is fixed on more recent versions.)

[cberg]

This thread shows the need for unit plans, which are discussed on this site elsewhere as a Development Roadmap Item.  The only workaround to this solution that I have discovered is to ungroup the symbol and redefine it, once the wall edits are made.  I personally have not figured out a way to adjust wall heights in symbols, which is kind of a pain.  (edit: I guess offsetting the components does do the trick)

 

VW Development Team,  it would be useful to have another mode to establish the wall height top and bottom. Layer Wall Height, Layer Elevation, Symbol Definition.  That way the walls would be defined by the Z-axis of the symbol.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by cberg

[MODULR Design]

Have we found a workaround for this yet? I am working on unit plans, and have them in symbols. But when I edit the walls, the wall heights get all wonky. Really need some assistance here! Thanks!

[Matt Panzer]

Have you tried placing the garage walls and roof in classes that you can turn off in the other file?

 

The reason the walls behave differently in symbols is because instances of the symbol can be placed on different layers, so walls in the symbol definition cannot be based on a layer, nor can it use story levels.  If you insist on keeping them in the symbol, you can edit the wall components, make their tops/bottom bound to the wall (with offsets, if needed), then set the wall height via the Object Info palette. I still think you can get what you need using classes - which should be a lot easier.

[rDesign]

On 3/4/2019 at 8:24 AM, Matt Panzer said:

If you insist on keeping them in the symbol, you can edit the wall components, make their tops/bottom bound to the wall (with offsets, if needed), then set the wall height via the Object Info palette. I still think you can get what you need using classes - which should be a lot easier.

@MODULR Design - have you tried what Matt suggested above? I don’t think the functionality requested in this old thread has changed or been implemented, so I think that will be your best option.

Edited May 4 by rDesign

[sqFace]

On 3/4/2019 at 8:24 AM, Matt Panzer said:

Matt Panzer: "The reason the walls behave differently in symbols is because instances of the symbol can be placed on different layers, so walls in the symbol definition cannot be based on a layer, nor can it use story levels.  If you insist on keeping them in the symbol, you can edit the wall components, make their tops/bottom bound to the wall (with offsets, if needed), then set the wall height via the Object Info palette."
 

We use symbols for our Residential Apartment Unit layouts, and then populate them in the floor plate as the suites repeat. Very simple in other softwares (AutoCAD Blocks, Revit Groups, SketchUp Components..). I'm finding when i mirror the Symbol, the walls and doors start acting wild in 3D, especially if i haven't set the Wall heights before compiling a symbol, sometimes the 2d object disappear, as they fly up somewhere in space... so i have to then redraw walls and doors, etc-- which defeats the whole point of a symbol! A Symbol should make repetitive elements of your drawing quick and easy to multiply and propagate throughout the building. 

Would love to have these added to the Wishlist for software improvements 

It appears that the logic of the Symbols is still unresolved, and create unintended results. I'll try to think through this out loud. Pardon me if i use terms from other software, that have figure this out...

PROPOSED IMPROVEMENTS TO SYMBOLS:

Symbol 'working plane' Elevation relationship to Layer Elevation: When Symbols are placed on different Layers, their working plane (z value origin) should snap to the Layer Elevation every time. I'm sure it would be useful to be able to set the symbol height above that layer elevation for user adjustment. The need for this relationship is paramount. 

Wall Height in Symbol: 
Either let the symbol elements read the Layer info (outside the bounds of the symbol based on 'working plane' connecting to the Layer it is drawn on. Or as cberg suggested have Symbol Definition (Elevation) parameter for walls (ie. Symbol base elevation or 'Working Plane'), or an Unconstrained Top of Wall, meaning only a Height is assigned. 
The lack of edibility due to a jumble of wall height data, makes this tool very unpredictable, frustrating and frankly less useful then 


 

WORKFLOW for Walls in Symbols: 
Draw your walls and prior to Symboling them, change the Top Bound to Layer Elevation (0), and set a Height or Top Offset. Unfortunately this has to happen before you Symbol them together. If you are redrawing, group the old walls that are misbehaving, draw new walls over them while making sure to not exit the symbol until you set yor Wall Top Bounds to Layer Elevation, and setting the height. 


THE WORKAROUND:
Our office is starting to move towards this workflow to circumvent using Symbols:
- creating a Design Layer for each Residential Unit type, drawing it in place in the building (so you have the context) at the same scale, 
- on the overall plans placing uncropped viewports of each unit plan. this enables you to use data tags properly (unlike with symbols). Cropping will make the viewports act weird.

- The notes, labels etc will need to happen in the Sheet Annotation Layers.

Hope that helps. Hope this changes... 😩

@Pat Stanford any thoughts on this?

 

 

[Pat Stanford]

Better than Symbol for unit plans are probably Design Layer Viewports as they can support multiple Layer and multiple Classes.