Swift Action Needed: Rendering integration so VW companies can stay Competitive

[zoomer]

17 minutes ago, Tanner Shelton said:

Generally speaking, the 3D world is moving towards a more multi-program workflow.

 

It is,

but 3D is a bit more compatible than CAD, as the Studios demanded, where we always

fight with Exchange and have IFC now only. IFC a-likes are comeing more and more the last

years for 3D.

But 3D people can be very focused and specialized, while we are mostly need to do everything.

[Tanner Shelton]

29 minutes ago, zoomer said:

But 3D people can be very focused and specialized, while we are mostly need to do everything.

It all depends on how big of a team there is. Some studios will have one person just on modeling, and one just on texturing, while another studio may have one on modeling, texturing, rigging, and getting it all setup for rendering. I feel like increasing the compatibility is what is key to let this world use the great things of the 3D world. For example, Unreal Studio creating Datasmith. So I do feel like the potential for change is there.

 

I think my view on it may be different than most, as my background is the 3D pipeline, and I am learning the planning Vectorworks side of things, where most come from a CAD or drafting background and are incorporating 3D.

[line-weight]

Just because the '3d world' (presumably mainly for film, computer gaming etc?) uses lots of programs, doesn't mean that it makes any sense for the architecture/construction world. Many/most architectural practices don't have the resources to have members of staff dedicated to specialised aspects of rendering. In many cases it will be one person doing everything. They don't have the time or brain space to learn multiple programs on top of everything else you have to keep on top of in architectural practice.

 

Another significant difference is that architectural and construction drawings are effectively contract documents. They need to be very carefully managed for changes and consistency. Flipping things around between programs doesn't just waste time, it increases the scope for errors.

[elepp]

Enscape has their road map on their website. https://enscape3d.com/features/

If you scroll down, there are some nice things listed 😉

[fabrica]

$58.25 per month for enscape or $59.99 per month for Cinema 4d.....

[Tanner Shelton]

7 hours ago, line-weight said:

Just because the '3d world' (presumably mainly for film, computer gaming etc?) uses lots of programs, doesn't mean that it makes any sense for the architecture/construction world. Many/most architectural practices don't have the resources to have members of staff dedicated to specialised aspects of rendering. In many cases it will be one person doing everything. They don't have the time or brain space to learn multiple programs on top of everything else you have to keep on top of in architectural practice.

 

Another significant difference is that architectural and construction drawings are effectively contract documents. They need to be very carefully managed for changes and consistency. Flipping things around between programs doesn't just waste time, it increases the scope for errors.

That makes a lot of sense. This is why I think it would be good to have two options, a real time integration or plugin with something like Twinmotion for those that don't have the resources or time for learning an entire new program, since Twinmotion is mostly drag and drop. And then continue the integration of other 3d programs like Cinema and maybe Blender or 3ds max for those that have the resources and that want to push farther into super realistic Archviz.

 

The reason I bring up the 3d world is because they are very connected. There are multiple pillars of 3D. Games, Movies, 3d printing, and Architectural Visualization. If you are going for super realistic renders, and have the resources to devote to it, you would definitely want to use various 3d programs, marvelous for creating blankets and pillows, and a 3d package like cinema for it's established connections with various rendering platforms, probably even Substance or Mari to texture and add dirt maps and natural wear. But you are correct that all teams have different needs and can't afford all the bells and whistles, which means Vectorworks either improves Renderworks as a built in solution, or provides a connection to another program like Twinmotion, that will meet the smaller teams needs, or even a team that values speed over realism.

[rDesign]

1 hour ago, Tanner Shelton said:

which means Vectorworks either improves Renderworks as a built in solution, or provides a connection to another program like Twinmotion

I disagree, I don’t think this is an either / or proposition. If Vw wants to maintain their BIM package status relative to the others like Revit, ArchiCAD (heck, even Chief Architect), all of which currently have built-in rendering capabilities at least equal (if not better than RW) then they need to continue to do BOTH things:
1) Continue to improve Renderworks (which I’d guess probably meets the rendering needs of the majority of Vw users);

AND

2) Provide plugin / connections to 3rd Party 3D software / rendering packages (like Twinmotion and Lumion) for those users who need more realism than Vw can provide.

Edited February 26, 2020 by rDesign

[Tanner Shelton]

17 minutes ago, rDesign said:

I disagree, I don’t think this is an either / or proposition

Fair point! I guess it is the same idea as Cinema 4D still having Physical Renderer for use, but also offering Pro Render and then 3rd party renderers. Physical Renderer may be good enough for a portion of the userbase. So no reason to completely remove it, but Cinema is more valuable to a large audience because it offers integration with other render engines and still offers support for Physical Renderer, so you can do more if you need it. So not being pigeonholed into one option, Renderworks or Cinema, but integrating more options like has been discussed in this thread, Renderworks, Cinema, Twinmotion, Lumion, Enscape. So it doesn't all have to be carried on the shoulders of Renderworks alone.

 

The big problem I see with just adding new render engines as plugins, is the material setup is different if you want to fully use the render engine to its max potential. For example, in Cinema 4D, if you want to use Corona, you have to use Corona materials, which are PBR and have realistic parameters. If you were to render Vectorworks materials in Corona, it would have better lighting and GI, but you wouldn't have the inclusion of proper roughness values, maps, IOR values and such. Without those settings modified properly, textures look really bland and flat. It'll be interesting to see how that is handled.

[JuanP]

To answer some of your questions:

 

• Lumion - Completed last year 2019

• Enscape - Soon, good news. All I can say without getting into much troubles

• Redshift - We are working on getting Renderworks "REDSHIFT Ready" for the 2021 cycle.  Even though this is not a realtime renderer per se, It is a faster RW rendering.  It will be a quantum leap for Vectorworks built-in rendering.

• Twinmotion - We are working with Epic Games to connect Vectorworks with Unreal Studio, Twinmotion, and any other Unreal-based applications.  Ready for the 2021 cycle.

"We are opening up our data connections so that all the work a user puts into a model can convey outside Vectorworks.  We are investing a lot in real-time rendering and connections to real-time rendering engines.  We are giving our users more options.  These new options will greatly speed up their workflows." - Dave Donley Director of Product Technology

 

Dave Donley  will be covering these topics in more detail during the 2020 Design Summit April 22-24 in San Diego, California. 
https://www.vectorworks.net/design-summit

 

 

[Mark Aceto]

10 hours ago, line-weight said:

They don't have the time or brain space to learn multiple programs on top of everything else you have to keep on top of in architectural practice.

 

In the hours and hours and hours and hours spent rendering in Renderworks, one could very easily learn another set of very similar tools. And ultimately save time in the long run. Not to mention that Cinema runs circles around Renderworks in both quality and speed.

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[Mark Aceto]

36 minutes ago, JuanP said:

To answer some of your questions:

 

• Lumion - Completed last year 2019

• Enscape - Soon, good news. All I can say without getting into much troubles

• Redshift - We are working on getting Renderworks "REDSHIFT Ready" for the 2021 cycle.  Even though this is not a realtime renderer per se, It is a faster RW rendering.  It will be a quantum leap for Vectorworks built-in rendering.

• Twinmotion - We are working with Epic Games to connect Vectorworks with Unreal Studio, Twinmotion, and any other Unreal-based applications.  Ready for the 2021 cycle.

"We are opening up our data connections so that all the work a user puts into a model can convey outside Vectorworks.  We are investing a lot in real-time rendering and connections to real-time rendering engines.  We are giving our users more options.  These new options will greatly speed up their workflows." - Dave Donley Director of Product Technology

 

Dave Donley  will be covering these topics in more detail during the 2020 Design Summit April 22-24 in San Diego, California. 
https://www.vectorworks.net/design-summit

 

 

 

 

Surprised to see Twinmotion at the bottom of this list. I'm not mad; just disappointed (that Unreal can't get their sh*t together by SP3).

 

Sounds like mid-March (aka SP3) for limited beta support from Enscape: https://enscape3d.com/features/

 

Enscape system requirements for Windows or Bootcamp (not compatible with mac OS): https://enscape3d.com/community/blog/knowledgebase/system-requirements/

 

@JuanP how long until the Update (viewport) button disappears from the OIP?

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[Tanner Shelton]

43 minutes ago, JuanP said:

• Redshift - We are working on getting Renderworks "REDSHIFT Ready" for the 2021 cycle.  Even though this is not a realtime renderer per se, It is a faster RW rendering.  It will be a quantum leap for Vectorworks built-in rendering.

Wow! Awesome news! Hopefully that includes support for their PBR textures as well instead of Renderworks textures.

[Jeff Prince]

12 hours ago, line-weight said:

Just because the '3d world' (presumably mainly for film, computer gaming etc?) uses lots of programs, doesn't mean that it makes any sense for the architecture/construction world. Many/most architectural practices don't have the resources to have members of staff dedicated to specialised aspects of rendering. In many cases it will be one person doing everything. They don't have the time or brain space to learn multiple programs on top of everything else you have to keep on top of in architectural practice.

 

Another significant difference is that architectural and construction drawings are effectively contract documents. They need to be very carefully managed for changes and consistency. Flipping things around between programs doesn't just waste time, it increases the scope for errors.

 

 

 

This.

The last place I worked was a 900+ AEC firm.  We had a dedicated and highly talented 3D department doing renderings.  They used 3D Studio Max with VRay.  They rarely used the models created by architects using Revit, Sketchup, or Vectorworks, choosing to build the models themselves to suit their purposes.  Why?  Because architects model with a different level of detail suited to their purposes which often conflicts with what the 3D team needs to produce.  Add animation and things get even more complicated (see link below for some really complicated stuff).

 

Two of the design architects at our office provide and interesting case study.  One used Revit during conceptual development, the other used Sketchup or Vectorworks.  The Revit guy's rendering production really ground to a halt as his models became increasingly more detailed during design development.  The dedicated 3D team couldn't salvage his work and chose to remodel, in spite of MAX/Revit integration.  Meanwhile, the Sketchup/Vectorworks architect always hit the deadlines and produced beautiful work on his own without the 3D team.  It wasn't the software that made him better, it was process.  He made drawings in Vectorworks and maintained separate sketchup models to suit his study model rendering needs, saving significant time over the Revit architect's efforts.  I showed him how my landscape team was using Vectorworks as a sketchup replacement, but even then his process was faster overall.

 

I think having a fair quality built in rendering engine is important to those of us who are designing, rather than rendering, for a living.  If I need something highly polished, I'm outsourcing it to a professional 3D artist.  If I need process study models or progress renderings, I want VW to quickly generate the appropriate level of detail, I don't want to go outside to another program and have to redo my efforts.  My time is best spent addressing my client's needs and focusing our resources to achieve that.

 

If you want to see some of the design animations I have directed and contributed to, visit https://jeffprince.weebly.com/video-production.html

 

 

I played with VW to Twinmotion last year.  It's a fun toy for me as a landscape architect.  I figured it out with little time or effort.

I won't bother with it on an actual project until I can:

1. link my VW model to the Twin Motion and have it update automatically in both directions (example: move a tree in TM, location changes in VW and vice versa)

2. have Twin Motion automatically texture and plant a scene based on my VW specified materials and objects at a coordinated scale (bi-directional functionality again would be helpful).

It would be nice to have the Twin Motion renderings update on my sheet/viewports as a normal VW drawing does, but that's not a deal breaker.

 

Until then, it's faster and cheaper for me to hire an outside 3D artist to get the work done.  I don't have the time or interest, though I posses the ability, to become a true 3D visualization expert.  I expect software to be my assistant and do it for me.  The only reason I bother to do some of my own drawings anymore is because I actually enjoy it and the software makes it economically feasible for me to do so.  Rendering needs to have the same financial/time benefit.  The software industry has been marketing this to us professionals long enough, it's time to deliver on these promises IMHO.  

[zoomer]

2 hours ago, JuanP said:

To answer some of your questions:

 

 

a) Sounds very good

b) I think it is mandatory for VW, like any CAD, to have/keep something Render,

to create illustrations on Viewports, directly in the App.

 

33 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

I played with VW to Twinmotion last year.  It's a fun toy for me as a landscape architect.

 

It is,

as exteriors in Twinmotion look pretty acceptable.

Without raytracing, so far, there are some limits for architectural visualizations

especially interiors. Either it looks pretty 90ies or you have to spend lots of time faking.

Similar to Unreal Engine in general or for now on Mac.

And another problem for landscape architects was the quality of the plants.

Which got better with Quixxel - but for a few resources only so far.

 

Hey, but that's all what we have on Mac anyway.

 

Enscape, Lumion and maybe other Windows only solutions may be the better choice so far.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by zoomer

[Amorphous - Julian]

12 hours ago, JuanP said:

Redshift - We are working on getting Renderworks "REDSHIFT Ready" for the 2021 cycle.  Even though this is not a realtime renderer per se, It is a faster RW rendering.  It will be a quantum leap for Vectorworks built-in rendering.

 

Thanks @JuanP for the update. Exciting news indeed!

I see that you mentioned 'REDSHIFT ready' is on the roadmap for 2021. 

Is there any roadmap to fully support REDSHIFT as a Vectorworks plugin beyond 2021?

I would be willing to pay for the plugin. 

[line-weight]

13 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

 

In the hours and hours and hours and hours spent rendering in Renderworks, one could very easily learn another set of very similar tools. And ultimately save time in the long run. Not to mention that Cinema runs circles around Renderworks in both quality and speed.

 

Maybe - but probably depends how much rendering you do. For example, I only use RW on some projects - some go from start to finish without any renderings happening at all. I might spend a few days using it and then not again for another 6 months. In that time, I've forgotten various of the finer details of how it works, and have to remind myself of them, but at least a lot of stuff is "already there" in the model - for example I use classes that already have textures assigned. And I know in principle my way around VW. Going to another program there would be an extra layer of stuff to re-remember. I already have this problem with, say, photoshop (or the equivalent I now use) - there are often long gaps between short bursts of relatively intensive use, and in that time I forget all the shortcuts and best workflows and so on.

 

I think you're basically saying that RW is so slow that you could learn another program in the excessive time you spend doing the work in RW. But surely the response to this should be to make RW faster. Let's hope that the improvements @JuanP mentions will turn out to achieve that.

[_James]

Redshift sounded great until I read that it's essentially Windows only as it currently only supports Nvidia Cuda GPUs, so any current Mac wont be supported. You can work around it with an external GPU and you'd need to be on an OS no more recent than High Sierra or be working on an old mac with an Nvidia card.

 

They say they're working on AMD support - hopefully this comes in time for VW2021!

[Tanner Shelton]

8 hours ago, line-weight said:

But surely the response to this should be to make RW faster. Let's hope that the improvements @JuanP mentions will turn out to achieve that.

Renderworks can only become faster if Cinema 4D decides to make Physical Renderer faster (Physical Renderer is the rendering engine that Vectorworks uses). Currently, it feels like they have abandoned it without any major updates in a long while. Which makes sense since most C4D users use 3rd party rendering engines, and Cinema has pro render now. That is why the talk of implementing another rendering solution, Redshift now, would be so good. Hopefully Redshift integration would become the new Renderworks. As long as there is support for more Graphics Cards that is, as only Nvidia graphics cards is pretty limiting.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Tanner Shelton

[zoomer]

Cinema has also AMD Pro Render as a GPU (or hybrid) Solution.

 

Modo too, but is a bit behind so far.

But many have lots of hope for Pro Render.

 

It also works on Mac and can use any render capable devices available.

I tried it a few times and missed a few features (Physical Sky, Infinite Plane, ...)

and couldn't get very used to it so far though.

[Mark Aceto]

On 2/26/2020 at 1:22 PM, jeff prince said:

Two of the design architects at our office provide and interesting case study.  One used Revit during conceptual development, the other used Sketchup or Vectorworks.  The Revit guy's rendering production really ground to a halt as his models became increasingly more detailed during design development.

 

On 2/27/2020 at 1:35 AM, line-weight said:

Maybe - but probably depends how much rendering you do. For example, I only use RW on some projects - some go from start to finish without any renderings happening at all.

 

Replying to both of these posts that address similar contexts... 

 

PROCESS

1. Rendering a SketchUp, Rhino, 3DS Max, Cinema...model to win a bid
2. Rendering a VW model as the design develops

My experience is taking a conceptual design from someone else (#1), and "bringing it to life" in VW (#2). In other words, making it a reality. For context, this is the type of rendering I'm addressing.

 

INTEGRATION

 

I take all manner of 3D model file types from someone else in the pipeline, remodel them from scratch in VW, and then:

1. Render in OpenGL because it's fast and "good enough"
2. Render in Hidden Line because it's the right tool for the job (i.e. an iso perspective view of a stage) although it really needs to speed up with high LOD
3. Hand off to Cinema, Unreal or...

However, as I'm also project sharing that VW model with production riggers/electricians, audio/video engineers, production designers... exporting to structural engineers, scenic fabricators, site surveyors... I really can't allow that file to bloat. The process of plating up the plots and plans in the sheet layers is bad enough. So are all the built-in textures. For that reason (and obviously speed), I haven't used Renderworks in 2 years. Furthermore, watching colleagues take screenshots in Unreal...

 

That's why I keep going back to the title of this post: INTEGRATION. The way we bid on projects and developed designs 5 years ago is neither the same process or integration as today (or 5 years from now). GPU-biased rendering wasn't available. Mac OS supported NVIDIA. VW didn't provide Project Sharing or Braceworks. ConnectCAD was maybe version 1? GIS import was barely useable. Point Cloud import was brand new. Did eGPU's even exist?

 

Right now, VW has an identify crisis, and it doesn't seem to understand its own strengths and weaknesses:

• I'm up to NINE workspaces which is absolutely insane to manage
• No other 3D modeling software comes close to what VW is capable of doing with data (the whole marketing push of v2020 BTW)
• There are plenty of 3D rendering apps that run circles around VW
• Priority #1 is a fast, stable multicore (8+ cores, not 3) app that doesn't bog down in either design or sheet layers
• Priority #2 is to minimize the thousands of unnecessary clicks to navigate the UI
• Priority #3 is live-sync integration with the top rendering apps
• Priority #4 is to eliminate the Update button in the OIP (in other words, speed up the built-in rendering engine however that's accomplished with Redshift or otherwise)

We don't need a jack of all trades. We need an ace of some.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Mark Aceto

[Mark Aceto]

Twinmotion 2020 is out now, and available for $250 (half price) or free if you were already using v2019:

 

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/twinmotion-2020-1-delivers-new-levels-of-realism-and-much-more

 

It also introduces direct link (1-click synch) with Rhino in addition to ArchiCAD, Revit, SketchUp and RikCAD.

 

Safe to assume the new release will be buggy until at least 2020.3 so save, save, save.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Mark Aceto

[neal-2002]

that's amazing its free for existing users - result!!!!

[Amorphous - Julian]

This is very exciting!

 

Can’t wait to try it out tomorrow!

 

 

 

[rjtiedeman]

What other render packs are available? What about ARTLANTIS 2020 for the Mac and Vectorworks? It’s only $700 for a full license. 

[Andy Broomell]

On 2/26/2020 at 11:24 AM, JuanP said:

• Twinmotion - We are working with Epic Games to connect Vectorworks with Unreal Studio, Twinmotion, and any other Unreal-based applications.  Ready for the 2021 cycle.

 

So I have a relatively important question regarding this, having played around quite a bit recently with current methods of getting a Vectorworks model into Unreal (via FBX).

 

When this new integration debuts, how are we expected to work on UV maps? Unreal Engine, as fabulous as it is, doesn't let you edit UV maps, as it's expected that you finesse those beforehand in your DCC (digital content creation) software, which in our case is Vectorworks. There is currently no capability to edit UV maps in Vectorworks, so unless there's some additional UV functionality coming, I'm not sure how a link with Unreal will be usable?

 

It's important to note that Unreal relies on well-constructed UV maps not only for texturing, but for lightmaps and shadowmaps as well. All UV-based.

 

I want to make sure the folks working on this connection with Unreal are thinking through a complete workflow, not simply the file connectivity aspect which alone might not lead to usable results.

 

That being said, I'm really looking forward to further progress in this direction. Thank you for opening up more avenues for us!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Andy Broomell