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Swift Action Needed: Rendering integration so VW companies can stay Competitive

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17 minutes ago, Tanner Shelton said:

Generally speaking, the 3D world is moving towards a more multi-program workflow.

 

It is,

but 3D is a bit more compatible than CAD, as the Studios demanded, where we always

fight with Exchange and have IFC now only. IFC a-likes are comeing more and more the last

years for 3D.

But 3D people can be very focused and specialized, while we are mostly need to do everything.

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29 minutes ago, zoomer said:

But 3D people can be very focused and specialized, while we are mostly need to do everything.

It all depends on how big of a team there is. Some studios will have one person just on modeling, and one just on texturing, while another studio may have one on modeling, texturing, rigging, and getting it all setup for rendering. I feel like increasing the compatibility is what is key to let this world use the great things of the 3D world. For example, Unreal Studio creating Datasmith. So I do feel like the potential for change is there.

 

I think my view on it may be different than most, as my background is the 3D pipeline, and I am learning the planning Vectorworks side of things, where most come from a CAD or drafting background and are incorporating 3D.

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Just because the '3d world' (presumably mainly for film, computer gaming etc?) uses lots of programs, doesn't mean that it makes any sense for the architecture/construction world. Many/most architectural practices don't have the resources to have members of staff dedicated to specialised aspects of rendering. In many cases it will be one person doing everything. They don't have the time or brain space to learn multiple programs on top of everything else you have to keep on top of in architectural practice.

 

Another significant difference is that architectural and construction drawings are effectively contract documents. They need to be very carefully managed for changes and consistency. Flipping things around between programs doesn't just waste time, it increases the scope for errors.

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7 hours ago, line-weight said:

Just because the '3d world' (presumably mainly for film, computer gaming etc?) uses lots of programs, doesn't mean that it makes any sense for the architecture/construction world. Many/most architectural practices don't have the resources to have members of staff dedicated to specialised aspects of rendering. In many cases it will be one person doing everything. They don't have the time or brain space to learn multiple programs on top of everything else you have to keep on top of in architectural practice.

 

Another significant difference is that architectural and construction drawings are effectively contract documents. They need to be very carefully managed for changes and consistency. Flipping things around between programs doesn't just waste time, it increases the scope for errors.

That makes a lot of sense. This is why I think it would be good to have two options, a real time integration or plugin with something like Twinmotion for those that don't have the resources or time for learning an entire new program, since Twinmotion is mostly drag and drop. And then continue the integration of other 3d programs like Cinema and maybe Blender or 3ds max for those that have the resources and that want to push farther into super realistic Archviz.

 

The reason I bring up the 3d world is because they are very connected. There are multiple pillars of 3D. Games, Movies, 3d printing, and Architectural Visualization. If you are going for super realistic renders, and have the resources to devote to it, you would definitely want to use various 3d programs, marvelous for creating blankets and pillows, and a 3d package like cinema for it's established connections with various rendering platforms, probably even Substance or Mari to texture and add dirt maps and natural wear. But you are correct that all teams have different needs and can't afford all the bells and whistles, which means Vectorworks either improves Renderworks as a built in solution, or provides a connection to another program like Twinmotion, that will meet the smaller teams needs, or even a team that values speed over realism.

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1 hour ago, Tanner Shelton said:

which means Vectorworks either improves Renderworks as a built in solution, or provides a connection to another program like Twinmotion


I disagree, I don’t think this is an either / or proposition. If Vw wants to maintain their BIM package status relative to the others like Revit, ArchiCAD (heck, even Chief Architect), all of which currently have built-in rendering capabilities at least equal (if not better than RW) then they need to continue to do BOTH things:
1) Continue to improve Renderworks (which I’d guess probably meets the rendering needs of the majority of Vw users);

AND

2) Provide plugin / connections to 3rd Party 3D software / rendering packages (like Twinmotion and Lumion) for those users who need more realism than Vw can provide.

Edited by rDesign
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17 minutes ago, rDesign said:

I disagree, I don’t think this is an either / or proposition

Fair point! I guess it is the same idea as Cinema 4D still having Physical Renderer for use, but also offering Pro Render and then 3rd party renderers. Physical Renderer may be good enough for a portion of the userbase. So no reason to completely remove it, but Cinema is more valuable to a large audience because it offers integration with other render engines and still offers support for Physical Renderer, so you can do more if you need it. So not being pigeonholed into one option, Renderworks or Cinema, but integrating more options like has been discussed in this thread, Renderworks, Cinema, Twinmotion, Lumion, Enscape. So it doesn't all have to be carried on the shoulders of Renderworks alone.

 

The big problem I see with just adding new render engines as plugins, is the material setup is different if you want to fully use the render engine to its max potential. For example, in Cinema 4D, if you want to use Corona, you have to use Corona materials, which are PBR and have realistic parameters. If you were to render Vectorworks materials in Corona, it would have better lighting and GI, but you wouldn't have the inclusion of proper roughness values, maps, IOR values and such. Without those settings modified properly, textures look really bland and flat. It'll be interesting to see how that is handled.

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10 hours ago, line-weight said:

They don't have the time or brain space to learn multiple programs on top of everything else you have to keep on top of in architectural practice.

 

In the hours and hours and hours and hours spent rendering in Renderworks, one could very easily learn another set of very similar tools. And ultimately save time in the long run. Not to mention that Cinema runs circles around Renderworks in both quality and speed.

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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36 minutes ago, JuanP said:

To answer some of your questions:

 

  • Lumion - Completed last year 2019

  • Enscape - Soon, good news. All I can say without getting into much troubles

  • Redshift - We are working on getting Renderworks "REDSHIFT Ready" for the 2021 cycle.  Even though this is not a realtime renderer per se, It is a faster RW rendering.  It will be a quantum leap for Vectorworks built-in rendering.

  • Twinmotion - We are working with Epic Games to connect Vectorworks with Unreal Studio, Twinmotion, and any other Unreal-based applications.  Ready for the 2021 cycle.

"We are opening up our data connections so that all the work a user puts into a model can convey outside Vectorworks.  We are investing a lot in real-time rendering and connections to real-time rendering engines.  We are giving our users more options.  These new options will greatly speed up their workflows." - Dave Donley Director of Product Technology

 

Dave Donley  will be covering these topics in more detail during the 2020 Design Summit April 22-24 in San Diego, California. 
https://www.vectorworks.net/design-summit

 

 

 

 

Surprised to see Twinmotion at the bottom of this list. I'm not mad; just disappointed (that Unreal can't get their sh*t together by SP3).

 

Sounds like mid-March (aka SP3) for limited beta support from Enscape: https://enscape3d.com/features/

 

Enscape system requirements for Windows or Bootcamp (not compatible with mac OS): https://enscape3d.com/community/blog/knowledgebase/system-requirements/

 

@JuanP how long until the Update (viewport) button disappears from the OIP?

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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43 minutes ago, JuanP said:
  • Redshift - We are working on getting Renderworks "REDSHIFT Ready" for the 2021 cycle.  Even though this is not a realtime renderer per se, It is a faster RW rendering.  It will be a quantum leap for Vectorworks built-in rendering.

Wow! Awesome news! Hopefully that includes support for their PBR textures as well instead of Renderworks textures.

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2 hours ago, JuanP said:

To answer some of your questions:

 

 

a) Sounds very good

b) I think it is mandatory for VW, like any CAD, to have/keep something Render,

to create illustrations on Viewports, directly in the App.

 

33 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

I played with VW to Twinmotion last year.  It's a fun toy for me as a landscape architect.

 

It is,

as exteriors in Twinmotion look pretty acceptable.

Without raytracing, so far, there are some limits for architectural visualizations

especially interiors. Either it looks pretty 90ies or you have to spend lots of time faking.

Similar to Unreal Engine in general or for now on Mac.

And another problem for landscape architects was the quality of the plants.

Which got better with Quixxel - but for a few resources only so far.

 

Hey, but that's all what we have on Mac anyway.

 

Enscape, Lumion and maybe other Windows only solutions may be the better choice so far.

 

 

 

 

Edited by zoomer
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12 hours ago, JuanP said:

Redshift - We are working on getting Renderworks "REDSHIFT Ready" for the 2021 cycle.  Even though this is not a realtime renderer per se, It is a faster RW rendering.  It will be a quantum leap for Vectorworks built-in rendering.

 

Thanks @JuanP for the update. Exciting news indeed!

I see that you mentioned 'REDSHIFT ready' is on the roadmap for 2021. 

Is there any roadmap to fully support REDSHIFT as a Vectorworks plugin beyond 2021?

I would be willing to pay for the plugin. 

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13 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

 

In the hours and hours and hours and hours spent rendering in Renderworks, one could very easily learn another set of very similar tools. And ultimately save time in the long run. Not to mention that Cinema runs circles around Renderworks in both quality and speed.

 

Maybe - but probably depends how much rendering you do. For example, I only use RW on some projects - some go from start to finish without any renderings happening at all. I might spend a few days using it and then not again for another 6 months. In that time, I've forgotten various of the finer details of how it works, and have to remind myself of them, but at least a lot of stuff is "already there" in the model - for example I use classes that already have textures assigned. And I know in principle my way around VW. Going to another program there would be an extra layer of stuff to re-remember. I already have this problem with, say, photoshop (or the equivalent I now use) - there are often long gaps between short bursts of relatively intensive use, and in that time I forget all the shortcuts and best workflows and so on.

 

I think you're basically saying that RW is so slow that you could learn another program in the excessive time you spend doing the work in RW. But surely the response to this should be to make RW faster. Let's hope that the improvements @JuanP mentions will turn out to achieve that.

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Redshift sounded great until I read that it's essentially Windows only as it currently only supports Nvidia Cuda GPUs, so any current Mac wont be supported. You can work around it with an external GPU and you'd need to be on an OS no more recent than High Sierra or be working on an old mac with an Nvidia card.

 

They say they're working on AMD support - hopefully this comes in time for VW2021!

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8 hours ago, line-weight said:

But surely the response to this should be to make RW faster. Let's hope that the improvements @JuanP mentions will turn out to achieve that.

Renderworks can only become faster if Cinema 4D decides to make Physical Renderer faster (Physical Renderer is the rendering engine that Vectorworks uses). Currently, it feels like they have abandoned it without any major updates in a long while. Which makes sense since most C4D users use 3rd party rendering engines, and Cinema has pro render now. That is why the talk of implementing another rendering solution, Redshift now, would be so good. Hopefully Redshift integration would become the new Renderworks. As long as there is support for more Graphics Cards that is, as only Nvidia graphics cards is pretty limiting.

Edited by Tanner Shelton
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Cinema has also AMD Pro Render as a GPU (or hybrid) Solution.

 

Modo too, but is a bit behind so far.

But many have lots of hope for Pro Render.

 

It also works on Mac and can use any render capable devices available.

I tried it a few times and missed a few features (Physical Sky, Infinite Plane, ...)

and couldn't get very used to it so far though.

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Posted (edited)

Twinmotion 2020 is out now, and available for $250 (half price) or free if you were already using v2019:

 

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/twinmotion-2020-1-delivers-new-levels-of-realism-and-much-more

 

It also introduces direct link (1-click synch) with Rhino in addition to ArchiCAD, Revit, SketchUp and RikCAD.

 

Safe to assume the new release will be buggy until at least 2020.3 so save, save, save.

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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What other render packs are available? What about ARTLANTIS 2020 for the Mac and Vectorworks? It’s only $700 for a full license. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2/26/2020 at 11:24 AM, JuanP said:
  • Twinmotion - We are working with Epic Games to connect Vectorworks with Unreal Studio, Twinmotion, and any other Unreal-based applications.  Ready for the 2021 cycle.

 

So I have a relatively important question regarding this, having played around quite a bit recently with current methods of getting a Vectorworks model into Unreal (via FBX).

 

When this new integration debuts, how are we expected to work on UV maps? Unreal Engine, as fabulous as it is, doesn't let you edit UV maps, as it's expected that you finesse those beforehand in your DCC (digital content creation) software, which in our case is Vectorworks. There is currently no capability to edit UV maps in Vectorworks, so unless there's some additional UV functionality coming, I'm not sure how a link with Unreal will be usable?

 

It's important to note that Unreal relies on well-constructed UV maps not only for texturing, but for lightmaps and shadowmaps as well. All UV-based.

 

I want to make sure the folks working on this connection with Unreal are thinking through a complete workflow, not simply the file connectivity aspect which alone might not lead to usable results.

 

That being said, I'm really looking forward to further progress in this direction. Thank you for opening up more avenues for us!

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andy Broomell
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