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Amorphous - Julian

Swift Action Needed: Rendering integration so VW companies can stay Competitive

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19 hours ago, Diamond said:

Redshift are about to release a Mac version that is Metal 2 based. That is, Radeon graphics compatible. They have been showing demos of this at recent Mac events running beta versions on the new Mac Pro. Apparently it is screaming (faster than CUDA) fast. 


so the demo version for mac on redshift site could be allow us to test redshift on mac? If you read requests there are no mention about metal, but request 10.14 or older macOs with CUDA driver 🤷🏻‍♂️

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20 hours ago, Amorphous - Julian said:

That’s really awesome to know @Diamond I’ll sign up to follow the news. 

 

I’m open to getting C4D + REDSHIFT for our office, but than everyone have to learn another software (C4D) just for rendering our models, it would be so much better if a REDSHIFT plug-in was available for Vectorworks directly.

 

Lets hope the guys from Vectorworks will shed some light on this.

 

That would be a nice option for some users but for the rest of us, we don't want all of that entourage and all of those pixels ballooning our file size, especially if working in a shared project environment. That said, I don't believe Redshift offers a library of entourage objects (or textures) as it's meant to be a plugin to speed up GPU biased rendering. VW is the tool of choice for building the bones in the design layer, plating it up in the sheet layers, and using the data for everything from worksheets to Bracewurst. Leave the rendering (and entourage) to an external program like Cinema with plugins like Redshift (see also: Lumion, Twinmotion... ). The key word from your original post is "integration".

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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I agree with that Mark. I think instead of offering Renderworks, it would be a really good option to focus more on adding in functionality to export to various programs for rendering. Renderworks is so behind in the 3D world. No PBR textures, an old renderer that hasn't been updated in years. Lack of some really powerful modeling tools for more organic models, and no way to handle those in the program well. Currently, I have migrated to Vectorworks for Modeling/plans. Cinema 4D for additional modeling, then using Corona in Cinema 4D to texture with modern PBR textures and render with Corona, which is a super fast CPU renderer. It works really well for me as I am going for realistic looks. I've been thinking a good replacement or alternate to Renderworks would be giving a lot of connection with something like Twinmotion. It is real time, has a ton of assets pre loaded, and it isn't hard to get something that looks good. I think this would be a good mix for most users that aren't fully focused on creating super realistic and styled renders.

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@Tanner Shelton I'm following that Twinmotion thread like a hawk. Fingers crossed for SP3 TM live sync... 

 

Renderworks aka "Cinerender" is just a ported (watered down) version of Cinema that's been gathering dust over the years. I totally get why it existed 10 years ago but if it were up to me, I'd remove it from VW altogether. It does not spark joy. #maintenance-release

 

In 2020:

  • The only rendering that belongs in VW is OpenGL and Hidden Line
  • VW should integrate (sync not export) with as many thirty party rendering apps as possible

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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I would tend to agree, and your workflow matches mine.  Recently I've gone w/ twinmotion for my rough renders, and done the high end presentation renders with cinema.  I still want renderworks for all of the sheet layers of drafting though.  

 

 

 

 

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@Mark Aceto I agree in principle but renderworks is what maps the textures and the lights and all of that.  Without it the rendering options for VW are VERY limited.  We need it to port models over to any other rendering program.  So yes, we don't want its final result, but we need its back end.  

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One of the most important issue is speed, not quality. Renderworks are able to create good static images. Exept for those f@&€ing spotchliness (i post bugs from YEARS and it is only workaround and fake lights). Panoramas, animations etc are totally out of acceptable time elaboration progress. Even high quality render need to have nights of patience. One thing is need to have a professional renderings (and in this case i agree when i read “switch to another software”) but integration means that i could not get older during a 300 dpi 20x30 cm viewport or during a big section. Or to aren't not able to launch an animation out of OpenGL. In this case Redshift could be right choise users need. A revolution, same of 3D free modelling since 2013. 

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Currently with my workflow, I don't texture at all in Vectorworks. My only items in the resource browser has been symbols. I also don't light or even try to mess with cameras either. And then I do all lighting, cameras, and texturing in Cinema with Coronas material node editor and Corona lights. This way my Vectorworks file is a lot smaller, and others can work on my layouts without having all of the fluff slowing down their computers.

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10 minutes ago, Tanner Shelton said:

Currently with my workflow, I don't texture at all in Vectorworks. My only items in the resource browser has been symbols. I also don't light or even try to mess with cameras either. And then I do all lighting, cameras, and texturing in Cinema with Coronas material node editor and Corona lights. This way my Vectorworks file is a lot smaller, and others can work on my layouts without having all of the fluff slowing down their computers.

 

This right here is how everyone should draw (although cameras are the only way that I know of to outsmart the distorted 3 point perspective in VW).

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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@Zeno That is why I think it would be a good idea to allow for two workflows. One that currently works, which is the really high quality version. It will take longer to setup and render, but will give amazing results. That's the Vectorworks -> Cinema 4D -> 3rd party renderer. The second option would be for those that value speed over quality. Which would be Vectorworks -> Twinmotion. Twinmotion looks great, but isn't as photo realistic as it is real time and has to take shortcuts. But speed would be further increased by having a lot of ready made assets and the fact that you won't ever have to wait for a render.

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I also would not like Entourage, like from Twinmotion, in my CAD files.

 

And am not sure how that direct Exchange could still work - while keeping

the Entourage separate in the Twinmotion file at the same time (?)

Maybe that would work.

 

But I think it is important that VW, which does offer the best 2D plan

drawing (?), also offers any kind of Rendering for generated Elevation Plans

and Sections in Viewports. Could be something faster than C4D Render though.

To keep allowing to do things like plans for a competition in a single App.

 

C4D has PBR materials and enough features for a CPU renderer.

Archicad makes use of it. Just RW development in VW is a bit stagnating

and obscure.

 

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23 hours ago, Zeno said:


so the demo version for mac on redshift site could be allow us to test redshift on mac? If you read requests there are no mention about metal, but request 10.14 or older macOs with CUDA driver 🤷🏻‍♂️


I don’t believe MacOS Catalina supports Nvidia GPUs, so until the new Metal compatible version arrives Radeon cards and Metal is off limits.

 

The think current Mac Redshift version only supports older machines and/or eGPUs with Nvidia cards to get CUDA. 

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This was posted on Facebook yesterday:

 

https://www.maxon.net/en-us/news/maxon-news/article/future-system-requirements-for-cinema-4d/?fbclid=IwAR33VUWdjBwhmIok2ACU4Bc4kCW8Q7uWlaLBcH_bbnrTgJQOYjsD01OUAIQ

 

The comments quickly turned to Redshift GPU support which is currently limited to NVIDIA. Does anyone know the roadmap / timeline for Redshift AMD GPU support (if at all)?

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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Redshift AMD support arrives as soon as the new Metal based version arrives, which should be in the next couple of months. Macs have been all AMD for years.

 

It sounds as if they are looking to support as widely as possible, but Vega minimum was mentioned as a possibility on the Redshift forums. 

 

PS Apple still has bad blood towards Nvidia over a bad batch of GPUs they supplied years ago. Additionally Apple has a similar approach to GPUs as Nvidia does - they both want to add value by getting down to the ‘metal’ – hence CUDA and Apple’s Metal APIs. And that is why Maxon is so excited about the new Mac Pros that link up to 4 GPUs with 128GB of VRAM. 

 

PPS If you want to run Nvidia you need to use older OS versions. 

Edited by Diamond
I just repeated myself 🤓
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Meanwhile, VW has no clear roadmap for Metal...  At this point, I'll consider it a win if I can use more than 3 cores on a design layer.

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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And I've lobbied for a while now on this forum that having a team render setup like C4D does is key.  My old machines are put to use and I can distribute a render across 16 or so cores combined.  Doesn't matter if they are mac or win.  Everytime I upgrad the office computer, my render farm gets bigger/faster.  

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4 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

team render setup like C4D does is key.  My old machines are put to use and I can distribute a render across 16 or so cores combined.  Doesn't matter if they are mac or win.

 

 

Hmmh,

I tried a lot to get Team Render working between Mac Pro and PC.

When starting from Mac, t will only use 1 of 16 Ryzen cores on the PC for me.

 

What would work is to start TR from PC and use all my 6 outdated Trash Can cores 🙂

 

Similar with Modo,

I get all cores on my PC, but Network Rendering will do only the final Raytracing part.

But all the time consuming Pre Rendering has to be done on my slow Trash Can.

So it would be still much faster to skip NR and just start on the PC.

 

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I would rather see Renderworks improved, or replaced with some other integrated renderer, than removed. For me, it's a big benefit of VW that I can do everything within one file. I hate workflows that involve constant importing/exporting between applications. As it is, I can make a minor update to the model in VW and it is then present both in my main drawings, and any renders that I want to generate. I don't want to be making decisions about whether it's best to make changes to the 3d model within VW and then export, or in an external application, then have to duplicate it in VW.

 

I often have drawing sheets that contain sections, elevations and renders. I like being able to simply update all the viewports instead of messing about importing images and so on.

 

It's fine if whatever is integrated/included with VW is not a fully powered renderer - for producing high quality presentation images it's ok to use an external renderer and invest extra time in those images. But a lot of the time I want to do OK-quality renders quickly and efficiently. Speed and efficiency is important.

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2 hours ago, line-weight said:

I hate workflows that involve constant importing/exporting between applications.

 

Generally, of course.

 

But as it currently works here in V20,

(beside these Door-containing-Symbol issues)

C4D Exchange is pretty much a one button solution.

Just had at least 3 C4D Refreshes this morning and was every

time again surprised that it worked 🙂

 

But I would do also Viewport Renderings directly in VW instead of

importing images.

Or didn't linking images was a new feature some time ago ?

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1 hour ago, zoomer said:

 

Generally, of course.

 

But as it currently works here in V20,

(beside these Door-containing-Symbol issues)

C4D Exchange is pretty much a one button solution.

Just had at least 3 C4D Refreshes this morning and was every

time again surprised that it worked 🙂

 

 

 

Ok... but I've just looked at the licence prices for C4D - it's almost as much as for VW itself.

 

So if VW told me they are discontinuing Renderworks but something like C4D will become fully integrated - that's fine except that it effectively doubles the cost of my software licence. Of course, if there are also cheaper options that become well integrated, that's better, but it would still mean I can't do stuff I've been able to do before, without paying extra.

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OK,

C4D is subscription only now.

R21 is my last perpetual version. I even only use R20.

Or R19, because of last perpetual VRay.

So unfortunately C4D will end for me in a few years.

 

Hope that then there will be something better for me.

Meanwhile Modo development is a bit problematic too.

 

So either Blender, or something real time.

Edited by zoomer

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Generally speaking, the 3D world is moving towards a more multi-program workflow. Not using multiple programs would be like trying to make an animated movie with just Maya. It's technically possible, but not realistic. It will take much longer and the result won't be passable. For movies, you don't just use Maya, you use Maya for box modeling, ZBrush for high poly sculpting, Marvelous Designer for cloth simulation, Maya for rigging and animation, Mari or Substance for texturing, and then usually Maya for scene setup and then Arnold or another 3rd party renderer for rendering. In 3D, each program finds it's niche, then does a really good job at that one thing. If you try to implement too many things, you either need a giant team to keep it going and improving, or everything will be sub par.

 

That doesn't mean the Architectural/Event industry is moving that way as well, but I think Vectorworks will need to evolve in some way to be able to compete with the competition. Either with going full into updating 3D to help it compete with other commercially available programs, or implement more 3rd party support for exporting to allow for easier workflows with these programs.

 

The only Architecture program I have used is Vectorworks, so I would be curious to see how others compare in this regard. Such as Revit.

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11 minutes ago, Tanner Shelton said:

Generally speaking, the 3D world is moving towards a more multi-program workflow. Not using multiple programs would be like trying to make an animated movie with just Maya. It's technically possible, but not realistic. It will take much longer and the result won't be passable. For movies, you don't just use Maya, you use Maya for box modeling, ZBrush for high poly sculpting, Marvelous Designer for cloth simulation, Maya for rigging and animation, Mari or Substance for texturing, and then usually Maya for scene setup and then Arnold or another 3rd party renderer for rendering. In 3D, each program finds it's niche, then does a really good job at that one thing. If you try to implement too many things, you either need a giant team to keep it going and improving, or everything will be sub par.

 

That doesn't mean the Architectural/Event industry is moving that way as well, but I think Vectorworks will need to evolve in some way to be able to compete with the competition. Either with going full into updating 3D to help it compete with other commercially available programs, or implement more 3rd party support for exporting to allow for easier workflows with these programs.

 

The only Architecture program I have used is Vectorworks, so I would be curious to see how others compare in this regard. Such as Revit.

 

This post right here.    x1000.    I'd rather have a rock-solid specific area of focus oriented program than one that tries to do everything and fails at most of it.    

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16 minutes ago, Tanner Shelton said:

I would be curious to see how others compare in this regard. Such as Revit.

 

For Revit you will get any kind of plugin and Exchange that you like,

because it is kind of a market leader.

VRAY(?), Enscape, Lumion(?), ...

 

Also C4D and Allplan(?) use all out of Cinerender license,

while VW tries to hide or limit most under the old clunky interface.

 

I do my current Archvis mostly in C4D although I would generally prefer Modo.

But C4D has some very comfortable features that I miss in Modo.

 

1. VW/Archicad/Allplan nearly-lossless Exchange and Updating

2. Render Takes (much less error prone than Modo's Render Passes) + Render selected Takes

3. The ability to go on working in the file while the Picture Viewer renders

4. All time coordinate numerical input

4. Layers

 

Therefore I renounce of Modo's perfect CPU Preview, Better Material Shader Tree,

faster more pleasing Rendering Quality, better Selection and Mesh Editing, ....

So if I am fine to give up some quality for better project management anyway,

I should be fine with Cinerender in a CAD like VW

and think RW should stay.

 

If there will come something better - fine too.

 

Edited by zoomer

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