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Amorphous - Julian

Swift Action Needed: Rendering integration so VW companies can stay Competitive

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1 hour ago, Hans-Olav said:

@line-weight 

Twinmotion is for perspective presentation and animation. You can do sections with good quality in Renderworks. 

Here are two examples and my settings

 

Skjermbilde 2019-08-28 kl. 13.04.37.png

Skjermbilde 2019-08-28 kl. 13.00.58.png

Skjermbilde 2019-08-28 kl. 13.08.09.png

Skjermbilde 2019-08-28 kl. 13.08.21.png

Skjermbilde 2019-08-28 kl. 13.09.08.png

Skjermbilde 2019-08-28 kl. 13.09.17.png

Skjermbilde 2019-08-28 kl. 13.09.27.png

 

Sorry, maybe I should have made clearer, I am talking about 3d perspective, cutaway, rendered sections, not orthographic ones.

 

For example like this:

 

1392470420_ScreenShot2019-08-28at15_14_24.thumb.jpg.95d1c82c7b81d85049eae5fe5a4b6ffe.jpg

 

 

Edited by line-weight
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On 8/29/2019 at 2:15 AM, line-weight said:

I am talking about 3d perspective, cutaway, rendered sections, not orthographic ones.

I’m just learned Twinmotion but i can say it has a perspective section feature. 
There is a YouTube twinmotion tutorial playlist that’s quite good for beginners. This one is on section cuts. 

 

Edited by Boh
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19 hours ago, Boh said:

I’m just learned Twinmotion but i can say it has a perspective section feature. 
There is a YouTube twinmotion tutorial playlist that’s quite good for beginners. This one is on section cuts. 

 

 

Looks like it also has some issues with sectioning elements that should be solid but turn out hollow - for example the roof, and roof beams here

 

2064990994_ScreenShot2019-12-01at14_20_22.thumb.jpg.3a6fa6a1766ada431c038792fc3c43ed.jpg

 

That's perhaps dependent on the geometry that it's given, so not Twinmotion's fault... but maybe means it can't solve this hollowness problem which is often encountered in VW?

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3 hours ago, line-weight said:

That's perhaps dependent on the geometry that it's given, so not Twinmotion's fault... but maybe means it can't solve this hollowness problem which is often encountered in VW?

I’ve got presentation to prepare for which I’m hoping TM will work it’s magic so I’ll report back on that.

 

If there are any good tips from experienced TMers out there in terms of exporting VW files to TM please share your pearls of wisdom.

 

From what I’ve gleaned from watching umpteen beginners guide vids is how the model is is created and then imported into TM is crucial. 
 

So far learnings include:

 

C4D export is the best option for file export type.  Obj export doesn’t work.

A well organised /classed file makes TM rendering easier.

”preserve hierarchy” on import so objects can be rendered individually

Check scaling as TM’s metric unit is metres (not my default millimetres)..

 

I’m still a bit unsure about the process of updating the TM file with a revised VW file.

I understand that the TM native stuff will be ok but what about render /material changes to objects in the model. Does this all need rerendering? If so is there a quick way to reapply textures.

 

Keen for any tips. Ta 

 

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HI

If you save your new export from vw with the same name you only have to reload it into TM for the changes to appear. It might depend of how much the model has changed but usually the textures already assigned will be kept so going back and forth between VW and TM is quite easy.

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My big wish for something like this is that spotlight instruments could also be transferred over as moving lights for twinmotion. Does this currently work with Cinema 4D?

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there is an add on to c4d that does moving lights.  I can't remember what it is called, but @EAlexander knows what it is.

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1 hour ago, grant_PD said:

there is an add on to c4d that does moving lights.  I can't remember what it is called, but @EAlexander knows what it is.

 

I don't actually use it, but Grant is referring to STAGE for Cinema.

 

https://hantmade.com/stage/

 

Native Moving light symbols in VW come into Cinema as static Symbols only.

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I'm using VR on a regular basis for client presentations and design reviews. I had previously been using Sketchup plus IrisVR Prospect. This worked great, because the uploaded model from sketchup retained both saved views and layers, meaning the VR walkthroughs were highly effective for reviewing vantage points and toggling on/off various parts of the model.

 

I have not used Revit, and I have no desire to get mired in the world of Autodesk, but I am feeling very much left in the dust by the Enscape plugin, which allows the user to edit the model within Revit while simultaneously viewing in VR. 

 

I am just seeing this thread about Lumion LiveSync, and feeling very excited that this might be leading to the same thing. I will definitely be looking into Lumion. I haven't upgraded to 2020, yet, as I'm waiting for InteriorCAD 2020 to be released, but does anyone have any knowledge of how to use Lumion for real-time VR walkthroughs, or else the current/planned Enscape compatibility?

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7 hours ago, mgebel said:

 

 

I have not used Revit, and I have no desire to get mired in the world of Autodesk, but I am feeling very much left in the dust by the Enscape plugin, which allows the user to edit the model within Revit while simultaneously viewing in VR.

 

Does VR have genuine advantages over just a 3d view, for the purposes of editing?

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what has genuine advantage when talking about the Enscape workflow is the ability for a client, designer, or team leader to be in the model at one to one scale, making comments and decisions while a drafter is live updating the model to reflect the conversation. The Enscape viewer can in fact continue to review the model independently while the Revit project is being tweaked, then see the changes populate without needing to re-load. One meeting of this kind can cut down on a week or two of back-and-forth on 2d drawings, and often disambiguate a complex geometrical problem instantaneously.

 

 

While it is true that a similar workflow can be utilized working strictly in Vectorworks, or else in split screen with Lumion (I have not tried the later, but it looks promising from the videos), there is a key difference in that the drafter is directing the camera in the scene. With Enscape or Prospect or any other 6DOF VR format, the designer or client is directly controlling the camera. The difference may seem subtle, but I can say that having seen people's reaction of getting to experience the project in the immersive context, there is a huge advantage (at least for now that includes a mega wow-factor from the novelty, which really helps to sell the job). Often, it seems, the best spatial understanding comes from being able to move freely around a scene to see it from different angles. I take it for granted, being used to navigating the model everyday in 3d with a spatial mouse, but I think that for many people (especially the money people on most projects I've worked on), there is a lack of ability to visualize anything but the most skillfully crafted perspective renderings, and even then there is a bit of illusion, since the person making the rendering has to make a choice of where to place the camera for the maximal effect.

 

It goes without saying that this technology is still at the ground level, but it won't be long before it's commonplace. Once clients start asking for room-scale VR, Vectorworks is going to find itself in a serious disadvantage. Maybe one day VW will have live VR view built natively into the platform, but for the near term integration with Enscape or similar is a no-brainer.

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Indeed, what Markvl mentioned about RW being based upon the C4d rendering engine is true, but very loosely based.

One huge missing element. among others,  is that RW cannot produce Global Illumination (GI), which is a big deal.  

I have been using C4d and Vray for quite some time and am quite happy with that combo.

Vectorworks does play nice with C4d regarding exporting a VW file to C4d.  Works pretty seamlessly. Even when the need arrises where you forgot to include something in the original VW file, you can cut and paste it into the C4d file and it registers itself perfectly within the C4d file. 

 

RW is what it is.  

It does its job, but as others have mentioned it can't touch what other packages can produce in regards to Renderings.  

I realize that many times, for Clients, it really does not matter how perfectly a wine glass is reflecting the contenst of the room it is in, etc.  Most Clients would not even notice that, nor really care. That said, if you are into the finer points and detailing of an interior rendered scene for example, to me, it does make a difference.

Nerdy Kev, I guess 🙂

But.....if ChaosGroup, who is the repository for Vray,  could step up and incorporate Vray into VW, that would be a huge step forward, seems to me.

At the end of the day, it really is great and highly efficient to have everything in one file, without having to export out to another program to create better renderings.

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Posted (edited)

@Kevin K couldn't agree more. We would love Vray integration into VW too.

 

We tried exporting our Vectorworks models to C4D / Sketchup to render using Vray. However, the exported models become too polygon-heavy and it is near impossible to work with in those programs (even just for simple navigation and assigning materials).

 

Would be so much easier and much more efficient to work in the Vectorworks model to assign Vray Textures.  
 

@JuanP if I may ask you to help me follow up my emails enclosed with Chaos Group? (I can email you the full chain of mail)

 

I emailed Chaos Group in early 2018 about Vectorworks integration. They told me to check their forums. There was nothing so I emailed again late 2019 year. No response still. 

I'm thinking the Vray integration issue is perhaps an issue that is best taken up by Nemetscheck Vectorworks instead of a loose bunch of Vectorworks Users like us. Or do you have some insider knowledge on this you can share?

Vectorworks users are in a bad bit of limbo when it comes to rendering- Revit has Vray, Revit has Lumion Live Sync, Revit has Twinmotion Dynamic Link.... The Lumion link we have in Vectorwork doesn't really help Mac-based offices like mine. 
 
It would be so helpful to have a render engine roadmap to help VW users out of the current limbo:
- Does Nemetschek/Vectorworks plan to give us Maxon Redshift integration in the next few releases? If so, how many years from now?
- Can Vectorworks talk to Chaos Group about Vray Integration? Has this conversation taken place? Are they interested? How quickly can this happen?

- Talk of Twinmotion Direct Link has been going on forever, where is that conversation at? Is it abandoned or still actively pursued?

 

I'd like our office to focus on one rendering platform. The software cost and labour investment to explore each rendering package is too great. We can't jump from one to another, and want to invest time money and effort into one. 

 

A roadmap gives us guidance towards which rendering path to pick. 

 

 

 

email to chaos group.jpg

Edited by Amorphous - Julian
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Posted (edited)

V-Ray integration would be nice, especially for those who for whatever reason cannot use cloud based/externally hosted render solutions.

 

What happened to Artlantis as a rendering option? It used to be reasonably popular in the past, has a Vectorworks plugin and has global illumination etc. yet I see it rarely mentioned anymore as a rendering option. I know V-Ray is very good, fast etc. but I'd rather have a solution that works well and fairly straightforward rather than having to go through hoops and loops to make it work unless there is a substantial benefit for that route.

Edited by Art V

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2 hours ago, Kevin K said:

One huge missing element. among others,  is that RW cannot produce Global Illumination (GI), which is a big deal.

 

RW has C4D's Global Illumination for many years.

The settings are a bit simplified or condensed into the number of Rays section

but I don't miss much over C4D.

 

1 hour ago, Amorphous - Julian said:

Revit has Vray, Revit has Lumion Live Sync, Revit has Twinmotion Dynamic Link....

 

Revit/Sketchup has also Enscape integration.

And as far as I see VW integration is officially on their to do list.

Unfortunately just another of those Windows (and Subscription) only solutions.

But according to my first Enscape attempts from within Bricscad showed that

the render quality is pretty gorgeous

 

I expect Twinmotion VW exchange at one point too.

(And Raytraycing)

 

VRAY is now Subscription-only too,

therefore I meanwhile ended my VRAY ambitions in Modo and C4D.

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Posted (edited)

Fingers crossed for Twinmotion live sync in VW2020 SP3 (like Lumion last year). We know it's in the works; we just don't know when (SP3 usually drops in March, and the Design Summit is in April).

 

I assume that some of these 3D design/render apps are competitors, so I'm not holding my breath for future integrations with all of them.

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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Thanks Art.

I wasn't aware that there is still a VRAY Next perpetual for Modo.

Strange.

Since VRAY4C4D went to Chaos Group, it is subscription only.

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You're right, for C4D it seems to be subscription only, which is a bit unusual as I looked at Rhino, Blender and Modo where a perpetual option was available for those so assumed (incorrectly) it would also be the case for C4D.

 

I just "hope" that C4D remains the exception because it is either a direct competitor or because they think those using C4D and need V-Ray are in the high end rendering beyond C4D's capabilities on a daily basis and wouldn't blink at a subscription only in that case.

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Posted (edited)

When I noticed C4D Subscription only  I thought every VRAY Next+ version

would be subscription only from now on ....

 

Now it looks like C4D is the only special case for Chaos Group.

No idea why.

Edited by zoomer

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3 hours ago, JuanP said:

Absolutely, I'll reach out to you directly. I'm pretty sure we have contacted Chaos in the past, I will check with our R&D team as well and will report back.

It would definitely be nice if VW would be able use something like V-Ray so that it can be used in conjunction with other software that is also using V-Ray (and vice versa). Then it is possible to use a single render engine for multiple programs and have more consistent rendering experience.

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Twinmotion Vectorworks link for those who want quick real time renders, and Vray integration for those of us who want realistic physically accurate renders. Vray would be amazing to be integrated!

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So with Twinmotion, there will be the first and only RT Exchange option for Mac users 😉 

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