Swift Action Needed: Rendering integration so VW companies can stay Competitive

[Amorphous - Julian]

Over dinner with industry friends last night, I was reliably informed by a senior partner of an international firm that if our firms don't 'adopt the new ways of generating fast high-quality renders for our clients', we'd be left behind. 

 

The packages that are widely used now are ENScape, Twinmotion, Lumion and Vray. 

 

For a VW company like ours, who uses Vectorworks on Mac, these are the limitations:

 

(1) ENScape >> Works with ArchiCAD, Revit and Sketchup, but NOT Vectorworks 
(2) Twinmotion >> Works with Vectorworks, but NO direct synchronisation like it does for Revit and ArchiCAD

(3) Lumion >> Does not support Mac

(4) Vray >> Works with Revit, ArchiCAD and Sketchup, but not work Vectorworks. 

(5) Vectorworks (Renderworks): Quality of render simply is nowhere like the packages above  

 

In conclusion, if I was to apply the conversation about being 'left behind by the industry' based on speed and quality of visualisations, Vectorworks (and to a lesser degree, Mac) is becoming a hinderance for us to compete against the companies that uses Revit, ArchiCAD or even the basic sketchup program.  

 

Our industry is quickly evolving, and as operators, we don't have time to wait for Vectorworks to take years to implement integrations (when others have working integrations already).

 

Swift action is required from Vectorworks to help Vectorworks-based companies, and the Vectorworks package itself, to stay competitive. 

 

Following is a link from August last year, and I wonder if anyone can provide some update on conversations with Chaosgroup? Or if the engineering department has made progresses and inroads for integration with other rendering packages? When can VW get direct Synchronisation with TwinMotion? Would Vectorworks get integration with ENScape? How quickly can all this happen?

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Amorphous

[RussU]

I must admit, I began visualising in 3DS and Vray, when I only had a fundamentals licence. I got an upgrade to Designer w/Renderworks, and played with RW only a couple of times, but abandoned it pretty quickly. Occasionally I'll have an openGL viewport here and there, but generally I'll render in 3DS+Vray.

I think it would take an amazing engineering feat, or a ground up rewrite to get RW to compete with these other packages. There's an awful lot that these packages offer that RW does not.

That being said, I have seen some people's RW renders and they look very good. I stayed with what I was accustomed to at the time but I've not seen anything making me want to give RW a second go.

RW rendering is a CPU process at the moment, so when I put Vray through a twin GPU they're both in a different class. I've a file that takes 25 minutes/frame on CPU, but 45 second/frame on GPU. If RW could utilise the GPU then that would be a good step forward.

Maybe there's a reason they gave it away to everyone a few years ago.... I've not noticed much dev time being pushed into the RW module in recent years. Would love to be proven wrong for the 2020 release!

[Markvl]

One thing to keep in mind is that RW is based on the Cinema 4D render engine and is very compatible with Cinema 4D.

[zoomer]

4 hours ago, Markvl said:

One thing to keep in mind is that RW is based on the Cinema 4D render engine and is very compatible with Cinema 4D.

 

Yes, you could go with the cheapest C4D Version + VRAY Subscription.

[PVA - Admin]

We (Myself AND Engineering AND management) agree completely.

[zeno]

No way without real time render Mac compatible in my opinion. But keep in touch with the internal render engine. Renderworks actually is important like the VW identity. All in the same interface, on the same file.

[Matt Overton]

Maybe it's the scale of work we do but finding high quality renders are turning clients off. They feel like they are too far resolved and they haven't had a chance to input.

 

 

[Andrew Pollock]

I heard a rumor from a reliable source that Twinmotion is working on a VW plug in

[grant_PD]

Agree with the need for improved rendering in RW.  It still cannot compare to renderings from a dedicated rendering program.  BUT I applaud RW's ability to breath life into drafting pages.  

I feel like the needs of a rendering package are dictated by the industry the VW user works in.  If you are a lighting designer for entertainment, your path is Vision and maybe some of the RW rendering capabilities. I can see the appeal of the real time rendering engines for architecture work. But I work in scenery and visualization for events and television. As breathtaking as the realtime renderers look, I will never use them because I don't need 99 percent of their off the shelf things.  GPU rendering via C4D seems the most viable path, and I hope that VW continues to strengthen their pipeline between the two programs.  In fact I would argue that the pipeline for C4D is the ONLY way to go for entertainment professionals, as C4D has a very heavy presence in motion graphics used for broadcast.  

 

I would hope to see VW recognize the shortcomings of adopting only one strategy for rendering, and instead work on letting the user pick and choose from a variety of options to suit their needs.  

[Wesley Burrows]

I personally have two main machines.  My Vectorworks Mac box,  and a dedicated PC next to it running Cinema 4D w/ Corona.   I even use one keyboard and mouse for both using a program called share mouse,  so the PC feels like it's an extended display of my mac.  It's all very seamless.  I have to turn renders around for entertainment fast and this allows me to do it.   While I appreciate the idea of an all in one solution,  this setup gives me maximum flexibility and allows me to continue working in Vectorworks while I'm rendering on the other.   Plus Cinema allows you to farm your renders out to any one of hundreds of renderfarms if you need a bunch of views turned around super quick.    

 

I spent a lot of time beating my head against the wall trying to make an all in one pipe-line work for me.   And things became way less frustrating when I finally caved and just decided to get a dedicated render box with C4D.   Let each software platform excel at what it was intended to excel at,  plus it opens you up to a whole world of alternate render engines.

 

-W

[Jim Smith]

19 hours ago, Matt Overton said:

Maybe it's the scale of work we do but finding high quality renders are turning clients off. They feel like they are too far resolved and they haven't had a chance to input.

 

 

 

Client's IMHO can get grumpy if they think they can't change stuff. So we often share the first couple of iterations of SD (especially floor plans) using  a Foreground Sketch for that very reason. That said, it would be nice to have some of this candy to play with.

[EAlexander]

I work the same way as Wesley basically.  I do think that there is part of the conversation missing:

 

Unreal Engine 4

 

I think even dedicated render engines like VRAY, Corona, Octane, etc. should be on the look out for real time game engines.  Already making headway in Games and a lot of Archviz is moving towards this.  Have you guys looked at Unreal Studio:

 

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/studio

 

Pretty impressive.

[zoomer]

On 2/12/2019 at 5:24 PM, Zeno said:

No way without real time render Mac compatible in my opinion.

 

I'll go Blender Eevee for that.

 

I have pre-bought a nice Interior Tutorial for that.

(When I find the time)

Pro Workflow Feature wise I feel still more comfortable with Modo and C4D.

But for not too large Projects, Blender 2.80 became a gorgeous and beautiful App.

There are such nice little details for Arch Viz.

Edited February 13, 2019 by zoomer

[Matt Overton]

3 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

 

Client's IMHO can get grumpy if they think they can't change stuff. So we often share the first couple of iterations of SD (especially floor plans) using  a Foreground Sketch for that very reason. That said, it would be nice to have some of this candy to play with.

 

Candy will be nice, but I'd suggest if they want to get ahead then understanding there will be a backlash and keeping an eye on ways to improve what we do in the sketchy styles as well would be good positioning. 

[NHJ]

Cinema 4D plays very well with Vectorworks and has all the capabilities of what you mentioned being concerned with. Any reason you have not explored that? Cost is what it is. From my experience there is not a True one stop shop for Design and all its visualization needs, though Vectorworks does a good job of attempting to be that.

 

Vectorworks/Rhino w/Cinema 4D for the Money Shots can quickly achieve anything those others can. If you have your working pipeline established, that system can take a ton of hours to create but it can kick out Photo Real Renderings quick once its down. 

 

I have worked on each and everyone of the possible systems, AutoCAD, Revit, Rhino, 3DS Max, Adobe Suites, PCs vs Macs.

They really are all comparable at a certain level of hardware, workflow, and talent.

Like I said I do not know of any one box application that is able to do what all these other can together. And I have used nearly all of them at one point or another, including Large Int Firms and the Single Practitioner Scale, the Large Int Firms are not as far ahead as their work forces seem to indicate, at least in my exp, I was in the belly of the beast at a few. Its not nearly as organized and intelligent as one may think. Their marketing just makes them appear that way.

The Vectorworks and Cinema 4D Pipeline is great once set up. And add a touch of Rhino Nurbs Modeling and Accuracy Depending on the needs of Project/Clients.

 

Anyways thats my 3 cents... Good Luck!

Edited March 4, 2019 by our spaces between
my terrible typing :-)

[Mark Aceto]

On 2/13/2019 at 10:39 AM, EAlexander said:

I work the same way as Wesley basically.  I do think that there is part of the conversation missing:

 

Unreal Engine 4

 

I think even dedicated render engines like VRAY, Corona, Octane, etc. should be on the look out for real time game engines.  Already making headway in Games and a lot of Archviz is moving towards this.  Have you guys looked at Unreal Studio:

 

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/studio

 

Pretty impressive.

 

It's also the rendering engine used in Twinmotion.

 

When still renders are screenshots, and animations take a few minutes to render, there's no reason to spend time and $$$$$$$ on a render farm for Cinema (including the ported version in VW). Even an iMac Pro chokes on Cinema anything. Meanwhile a laptop running Unreal/Twinmotion is rendering in real time. The end result is 80% as good as Cinema but takes 20% of the time (and hardware cost), so it's a no-brainer.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Mark Aceto

[PVA - Admin]

13 minutes ago, Mark Aceto said:

The end result is 80% as good as Lumion/Cinema but takes 20% of the time (and hardware cost), so it's a no-brainer.

This is the absolute key to these add-on rendering solutions, they can take you incredibly far for a minimal time investment. I love working with rendering engines and playing with materials but not everyone has the luxury of time to experiment with and learn them. You can go much further into photorealism with a formal rendering package, but not everyone wants or needs to go that deep.

[PVA - Admin]

Lumion LiveSync was added in 2019 SP3. (To be fair we planned it before this post, but ill absolutely take credit for a 2 month turnaround on a major wishlist request 😉 ) There are also plans to support other major similar rendering packages.

This is the installation and basic usage video made by Lumion themselves:

I will be creating some in our style with some additional information and tips shortly.

[Mark Aceto]

On 3/20/2019 at 10:35 AM, Jim Wilson said:

This is the installation and basic usage video made by Lumion themselves

 

Lumion narrator: "It's hard to explain, but if you get there, come find me. Nothing will be able to tear us apart then."

[Jeff Prince]

What is the Twinmotion/vectorworks workflow currently?

Sounds like it does not sync currently... so what do you do if you import a model into Twinmotion, spend a bunch of time making it look pretty, and then have to update the model?  Do you lose work?

[rDesign]

4 hours ago, jeff prince said:

What is the Twinmotion/vectorworks workflow currently?

Sounds like it does not sync currently... so what do you do if you import a model into Twinmotion, spend a bunch of time making it look pretty, and then have to update the model?  Do you lose work?

 

Take a look at this YouTube tutorial video from @JRA-Vectorworks-CAD on Vw2018 / Twinmotion workflow—

 

Also check out the webinar linked in this post

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by rDesign

[Jeff Prince]

17 hours ago, rDesign said:

 

Take a look at this YouTube tutorial video from @JRA-Vectorworks-CAD on Vw2018 / Twinmotion workflow—

 

Also check out the webinar linked in this post

 

 

Thanks for the information/commercial.

I learned that Twinmotion does not currently have a link to Vectorworks, but it is "in the works".

 

I must have missed something, but I still wonder what happens once you have invested a bunch of work in Twinmotion decorating your Vectorworks model and then have a design change that needs to be incorporated.  I'm left with the impression that you might lose some or all the work created in Twinmotion.  Does anyone know how you handle updating the Twinmotion file with an revised Vectorworks model.... without having to reapply textures or entourage?

[Andrew Pollock]

Lumion looks like a great fast rendering program and the live sync plugin seems to integrate it well into VW, unfortunatly it is a PC only program. Is a live sync plug-in in the works for twinmotion? Is there any kind of time line for that?

[PVA - Admin]

On 3/24/2019 at 7:49 AM, jeff prince said:

I must have missed something, but I still wonder what happens once you have invested a bunch of work in Twinmotion decorating your Vectorworks model and then have a design change that needs to be incorporated.  I'm left with the impression that you might lose some or all the work created in Twinmotion.

It's possible to minimize that work, but yes this is the main reason a live sync was requested.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Andrew Pollock said:

Lumion looks like a great fast rendering program and the live sync plugin seems to integrate it well into VW, unfortunatly it is a PC only program. Is a live sync plug-in in the works for twinmotion?

The tech we developed that allows us to sync with Lumion is the base tech needed for us to work with Twinmotion and other external rendering programs. Lumion was simply the first we completed work on. More projects like this are planned but there is no timeline for them yet. I would not expect to see any additional integrations like this added until Vectorworks 2020 at least however.

[NikF]

Thank you that VW supported the LiveSynch with LUMION. It is absolutely fantastic and improves the process of designing dramatically. 

WELL DONE!