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Amorphous

Swift Action Needed: Rendering integration so VW companies can stay Competitive

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Over dinner with industry friends last night, I was reliably informed by a senior partner of an international firm that if our firms don't 'adopt the new ways of generating fast high-quality renders for our clients', we'd be left behind. 

 

The packages that are widely used now are ENScape, Twinmotion, Lumion and Vray. 

 

For a VW company like ours, who uses Vectorworks on Mac, these are the limitations:

 

(1) ENScape >> Works with ArchiCAD, Revit and Sketchup, but NOT Vectorworks 
(2) Twinmotion >> Works with Vectorworks, but NO direct synchronisation like it does for Revit and ArchiCAD

(3) Lumion >> Does not support Mac

(4) Vray >> Works with Revit, ArchiCAD and Sketchup, but not work Vectorworks. 

(5) Vectorworks (Renderworks): Quality of render simply is nowhere like the packages above  

 

In conclusion, if I was to apply the conversation about being 'left behind by the industry' based on speed and quality of visualisations, Vectorworks (and to a lesser degree, Mac) is becoming a hinderance for us to compete against the companies that uses Revit, ArchiCAD or even the basic sketchup program.  

 

Our industry is quickly evolving, and as operators, we don't have time to wait for Vectorworks to take years to implement integrations (when others have working integrations already).

 

Swift action is required from Vectorworks to help Vectorworks-based companies, and the Vectorworks package itself, to stay competitive. 

 

Following is a link from August last year, and I wonder if anyone can provide some update on conversations with Chaosgroup? Or if the engineering department has made progresses and inroads for integration with other rendering packages? When can VW get direct Synchronisation with TwinMotion? Would Vectorworks get integration with ENScape? How quickly can all this happen?

 

 

Screenshot 2019-02-12 at 9.59.18 AM.png

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Screenshot 2019-02-12 at 9.43.14 AM.png

Edited by Amorphous
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I must admit, I began visualising in 3DS and Vray, when I only had a fundamentals licence. I got an upgrade to Designer w/Renderworks, and played with RW only a couple of times, but abandoned it pretty quickly. Occasionally I'll have an openGL viewport here and there, but generally I'll render in 3DS+Vray.

I think it would take an amazing engineering feat, or a ground up rewrite to get RW to compete with these other packages. There's an awful lot that these packages offer that RW does not.

That being said, I have seen some people's RW renders and they look very good. I stayed with what I was accustomed to at the time but I've not seen anything making me want to give RW a second go.

RW rendering is a CPU process at the moment, so when I put Vray through a twin GPU they're both in a different class. I've a file that takes 25 minutes/frame on CPU, but 45 second/frame on GPU. If RW could utilise the GPU then that would be a good step forward.

Maybe there's a reason they gave it away to everyone a few years ago.... I've not noticed much dev time being pushed into the RW module in recent years. Would love to be proven wrong for the 2020 release!

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One thing to keep in mind is that RW is based on the Cinema 4D render engine and is very compatible with Cinema 4D.

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4 hours ago, Markvl said:

One thing to keep in mind is that RW is based on the Cinema 4D render engine and is very compatible with Cinema 4D.

 

Yes, you could go with the cheapest C4D Version + VRAY Subscription.

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We (Myself AND Engineering AND management) agree completely.

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No way without real time render Mac compatible in my opinion. But keep in touch with the internal render engine. Renderworks actually is important like the VW identity. All in the same interface, on the same file.

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Maybe it's the scale of work we do but finding high quality renders are turning clients off. They feel like they are too far resolved and they haven't had a chance to input.

 

 

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Agree with the need for improved rendering in RW.  It still cannot compare to renderings from a dedicated rendering program.  BUT I applaud RW's ability to breath life into drafting pages.  

I feel like the needs of a rendering package are dictated by the industry the VW user works in.  If you are a lighting designer for entertainment, your path is Vision and maybe some of the RW rendering capabilities. I can see the appeal of the real time rendering engines for architecture work. But I work in scenery and visualization for events and television. As breathtaking as the realtime renderers look, I will never use them because I don't need 99 percent of their off the shelf things.  GPU rendering via C4D seems the most viable path, and I hope that VW continues to strengthen their pipeline between the two programs.  In fact I would argue that the pipeline for C4D is the ONLY way to go for entertainment professionals, as C4D has a very heavy presence in motion graphics used for broadcast.  

 

I would hope to see VW recognize the shortcomings of adopting only one strategy for rendering, and instead work on letting the user pick and choose from a variety of options to suit their needs.  

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I personally have two main machines.  My Vectorworks Mac box,  and a dedicated PC next to it running Cinema 4D w/ Corona.   I even use one keyboard and mouse for both using a program called share mouse,  so the PC feels like it's an extended display of my mac.  It's all very seamless.  I have to turn renders around for entertainment fast and this allows me to do it.   While I appreciate the idea of an all in one solution,  this setup gives me maximum flexibility and allows me to continue working in Vectorworks while I'm rendering on the other.   Plus Cinema allows you to farm your renders out to any one of hundreds of renderfarms if you need a bunch of views turned around super quick.    

 

I spent a lot of time beating my head against the wall trying to make an all in one pipe-line work for me.   And things became way less frustrating when I finally caved and just decided to get a dedicated render box with C4D.   Let each software platform excel at what it was intended to excel at,  plus it opens you up to a whole world of alternate render engines.

 

-W

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19 hours ago, Matt Overton said:

Maybe it's the scale of work we do but finding high quality renders are turning clients off. They feel like they are too far resolved and they haven't had a chance to input.

 

 

 

Client's IMHO can get grumpy if they think they can't change stuff. So we often share the first couple of iterations of SD (especially floor plans) using  a Foreground Sketch for that very reason. That said, it would be nice to have some of this candy to play with.

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I work the same way as Wesley basically.  I do think that there is part of the conversation missing:

 

Unreal Engine 4

 

I think even dedicated render engines like VRAY, Corona, Octane, etc. should be on the look out for real time game engines.  Already making headway in Games and a lot of Archviz is moving towards this.  Have you guys looked at Unreal Studio:

 

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/studio

 

Pretty impressive.

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On 2/12/2019 at 5:24 PM, Zeno said:

No way without real time render Mac compatible in my opinion.

 

I'll go Blender Eevee for that.

 

I have pre-bought a nice Interior Tutorial for that.

(When I find the time)

Pro Workflow Feature wise I feel still more comfortable with Modo and C4D.

But for not too large Projects, Blender 2.80 became a gorgeous and beautiful App.

There are such nice little details for Arch Viz.

Edited by zoomer

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3 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

 

Client's IMHO can get grumpy if they think they can't change stuff. So we often share the first couple of iterations of SD (especially floor plans) using  a Foreground Sketch for that very reason. That said, it would be nice to have some of this candy to play with.

 

Candy will be nice, but I'd suggest if they want to get ahead then understanding there will be a backlash and keeping an eye on ways to improve what we do in the sketchy styles as well would be good positioning. 

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