Vectorworks, Inc Employee Popular Post PVA - Admin Posted November 13, 2018 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Popular Post Share Posted November 13, 2018 So there were a few threads related to this topic, and with Apple's release of the Mac Mini, users are more curious than ever about external graphics / eGPUs. Previously we had done a lot of testing with some early models, but a few things have changed recently that merit this being revisited: 1) So far, Nvidia has not released web drivers that work on macOS 10.14 Mojave. This is how MANY users were maintaining older Macs, especially the beloved cheese grater-style Mac Pros. This has also directly affected many user's hackintosh setups where they had gotten macOS to run on non-Apple hardware. 2) It looks more and more that Apple wishes to push external graphics as a solution for power users. Whether we agree with this direction or not, it is best to test and experiment with it, so that if that does become the only method, we are prepared for it. 3) Mojave introduced MUCH better eGPU support than in previous macOS versions. It is now possible to explicitly select the external GPU for a given app rather than requiring users do so via Terminal. Using Terminal is where I tend to draw the line for providing instructions for "Regular" users most of the time, so the removal of this need made doing this much less daunting of a walkthrough. The test case: I have here a Mac Mini 8,1, 3.2Ghz i7 6core, UHD 630 graphics. Solid CPU paired with a weak integrated GPU. This integrated GPU is very good by integrated GPU standards, but still substandard as far as Vectorworks performance is concerned. To that end, I have a Sonnet 550 eGPU enclosure, and a few Mojave-compatible GPUs to test. To start a Radeon Pro WX 9100 and a Radeon Pro WX 7100. These GPUs were selected because they are officially supported by Apple for use with eGPUs. I will be remaining within Apple's walled tech garden for the majority of these tests at least initially. First, the Cinebench results of the Mac Mini without any eGPU help: Next, the results after plugging in the eGPU dock with a Radeon PRO WX 7100: As expected, the CPU scores are within the margin of error of each other (a difference of 4 on these scores isn't noticeable in normal use anyway), but the GPU score is nearly double, placing it MUCH higher on the benchmark list for GPU as well as bringing it well into the recomended hardware territory. I share this testing mainly because I wont have the Mac Mini for long, so if there is any testing you would like me to do, this week is the week to speak up! 10 Quote Link to comment
mjm Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) Great to see these numbers Jim. A Custom renderworks test would also be great, esp if baselined by say your MBP, which I think is similar to machines many in this community use. Edited November 13, 2018 by mjm 2 Quote Link to comment
rgcn Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) Thanks so much for this Jim. My MacBook Pro is getting long in the tooth and I do need to start investigating the best solution for me. This has definitely put the Mac Mini in my consideration list. I would like to see how this compares with a MacBook Pro using an eGPU. Rob Edited November 13, 2018 by rgcn Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted November 13, 2018 Author Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, mjm said: A Custom renderworks test would also be great, esp if baselined by say your MBP, which I think is similar to machines many in this community use. You can judge the custom Renderworks speed of benchmarked hardware directly off of the multi core CPU score with complete faith. For instance the custom renderworks speed of a Cinebench score of 1200 will be almost precisely twice as fast as a machine that scored 600. I used to test both with a custom render test file I made, but the results across 30-some machines proved that the Cinebench score was completely reliable in determining expected render times. Where eGPUs will show the difference is in the general use and drafting within Vectorworks, which is much more subjective, so ill go with video evidence instead of just raw numbers from a benchmark utility. 2 Quote Link to comment
mjm Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Thanks for the clarity Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 34 minutes ago, Jim Wilson said: 1) So far, Nvidia has not released web drivers that work on macOS 10.14 Mojave. So far Nvidia says, the drivers are at Apple waiting for approval. (Some IT press claims since a few months) Apple says - nothing. But I wonder about the CB 15 single core results. Shouldn't these be nearly 200 ? Personal opinion, a Mac Mini with an eGPU (or external drives) isn't Mini anymore. But who needs a Mini Desktop Computer anyway. And if so, why not choose a Case Size that fits all(*) nicely in ? ((*) what is currently extending from behind my nMac Pro) Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted November 13, 2018 Author Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just now, zoomer said: But I wonder about the CB 15 single core results. Shouldn't these be nearly 200 ? Typo on my part, they are 194 and 198 not 104 and 108 for both. Apologies, fixed in the database as well. 1 Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted November 13, 2018 Author Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, zoomer said: And if so, why not choose a Case Size that fits all(*) nicely in ? If Apple would freaking finally resume selling one, id push users to buy it. My main motivation with this eGPU testing is that it really, really, really seems like Apple wants to make everyone use eGPUs so that they can still make slim/tiny/aesthetically pleasing devices at the cost of performance. Theyre happy forcing users to carry half a dozen dongles everywhere with their laptop, so it would really not surprise me at this point if the new Mac Pro was just a glossy black sphere with 4 usbC ports that they expect you to plug eGPUs, displays, and dongles of all sorts into. I dont WANT them to do that, but it's looking more and more like they might, so im preparing information to support users if that eventually happens. I would LOVE to be completely wrong and for them to release a new modifiable, professional chassis that could last users another full decade, and if that happens i will gladly toss all this prep work in the trash. 2 Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) So the Mac Mini isn't that bad CPU wise. No Mac Pro replacement though. (only 20+% faster than my nMac Pro with its nearly 6 year old 6 core Xeon W) And pity for the onboard only graphics. (I would have bought one else) My proposal to Apple, take 2 empty Mac Mini Cases from assembly line, 1x put 2*3 SATA SSD Slots in, 1x put 1-2 Mobile Nvidia GPUs in, and sell it together with a roll of Duct Tape along your Mac Minis .... to stack on top of each other. Edited November 13, 2018 by zoomer 2 Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 39 minutes ago, Jim Wilson said: If Apple would freaking finally resume selling one, id push users to buy it. My main motivation with this eGPU testing is that it really, really, really seems like Apple wants to make everyone use eGPUs so that they can still make slim/tiny/aesthetically pleasing devices at the cost of performance. Theyre happy forcing users to carry half a dozen dongles everywhere with their laptop, so it would really not surprise me at this point if the new Mac Pro was just a glossy black sphere with 4 usbC ports that they expect you to plug eGPUs, displays, and dongles of all sorts into. I dont WANT them to do that, but it's looking more and more like they might, so im preparing information to support users if that eventually happens. I would LOVE to be completely wrong and for them to release a new modifiable, professional chassis that could last users another full decade, and if that happens i will gladly toss all this prep work in the trash. I'm afraid you're right. And we have three options: Pay them for this overpriced downclocked heat throttled consumer garbage, buy the eGPUs and dongles... and enable their nonsense Hold on to the cheesgraters and 2015 MBP's and vote with our dollars Build a hackintosh (except for laptops?) But I'm really looking forward to the next season of Carpool Karoke! [extreme sarcasm] Quote Link to comment
Kevin McAllister Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Jim Wilson said: My main motivation with this eGPU testing is that it really, really, really seems like Apple wants to make everyone use eGPUs so that they can still make slim/tiny/aesthetically pleasing devices at the cost of performance. I agree with a lot of what you're saying about Apple. I wonder though if Apple sees the eGPU as an interim solution. I feel like if it was the future it would be Apple branded and not a third party offering. I think a lot of eggs may be in the custom chip basket..... There's no way to measure the "Cinebench" GPU score of the new iPad Pro (that I know of) but I'd be curious where it sits on the graphics spectrum. Kevin 1 Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted November 14, 2018 Author Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted November 14, 2018 17 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said: There's no way to measure the "Cinebench" GPU score of the new iPad Pro (that I know of) but I'd be curious where it sits on the graphics spectrum. Oh it's hardware is impressive indeed: https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/14/ipad-pro-versus-macbook-pro-speed-tests/ On the (admittedly few) benchmarks you can run on both ios and macos, the Ipad Pros have been holding their own well. I havent seen results for the latest one, this article is from last year. Honestly it's rapidly approaching or already viable that the ipad hardware could support Vectorworks now, but we of course can't just port it over from macos to ios, the UI would have to be dramatically different on such a device. Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted November 14, 2018 Author Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted November 14, 2018 Video added to original post as well, just uploaded so may take a second to process: 2 Quote Link to comment
Kevin McAllister Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, Jim Wilson said: Oh it's hardware is impressive indeed: https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/14/ipad-pro-versus-macbook-pro-speed-tests/ On the (admittedly few) benchmarks you can run on both ios and macos, the Ipad Pros have been holding their own well. I havent seen results for the latest one, this article is from last year. Honestly it's rapidly approaching or already viable that the ipad hardware could support Vectorworks now, but we of course can't just port it over from macos to ios, the UI would have to be dramatically different on such a device. Here's the comparison I read - https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/11/01/new-ipad-pro-benchmarks-are-very-close-to-the-2018-15-inch-macbook-pro Its multicore processor score is not that far off a current model maxed out 5K iMac which many use as their VW machine. I think everything is going to grow together and we'll have dual UI or hybrid UI software. Kevin Quote Link to comment
rgcn Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 59 minutes ago, Jim Wilson said: Oh it's hardware is impressive indeed: https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/14/ipad-pro-versus-macbook-pro-speed-tests/ On the (admittedly few) benchmarks you can run on both ios and macos, the Ipad Pros have been holding their own well. I havent seen results for the latest one, this article is from last year. Honestly it's rapidly approaching or already viable that the ipad hardware could support Vectorworks now, but we of course can't just port it over from macos to ios, the UI would have to be dramatically different on such a device. Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer have full working apps on both iOS and Mac. They have created a great UI for the iPad that is different from the Mac version but easy to learn. I enjoy using these apps both on my Mac and iPad. It it may be worth looking at how they did theirs to figure out how to do it for Vectorworks 🙂 Rob 1 Quote Link to comment
Kevin McAllister Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 @Jim Wilson here’s an article with more testing of the Mac Mini and it’s thermal throttling - https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/11/14/testing-thermal-throttling-and-performance-in-the-2018-i7-mac-mini Kevin Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I also watched a few Mac Mini Videos. Yes, it does throttles, never reaches the max. Boost Clock Speed like Macbook Pro, iMac Pro. It does not throttle like the Macbook Pro, but in a more acceptable way and amount like the iMac Pro does. (Cinebench cold 1200, Cinebench hot 1130-1150) So acceptable. But what I don't tolerate for either, iMac Pro or Mac Mini, as a serious Pro Desktop, is that the Mini CPU hits and runs at 100°C. And, while it may not be an issue at all for the large majority. You can run Bootcamp Windows fine, but the T2 chip (being also the SSD controller), will prevent from installing Linux on the internal disk. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 so this is what I have (see below) I feel that VW 2019 (multi-core ability) can finally take advantage of my machine... does this machine have a lot of life or can a new Mini with external graphics be the new way to go? Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said: does this machine have a lot of life I think yes. 12 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said: or can a new Mini with external graphics be the new way to go? A maxed out Mini would be max 20% faster CPU wise. As far as it looks you work still fine with your D500 GPU(s) (?) (I don't know any App beside Luxmark, Blender and AMD Pro Render that would have ever used both of my D700s) And if not, a Mac Mini + eGPU could be an Alternative. On the other hand you could add the eGPU to your existing Mac Pro too instead. 🙂 (Although it is not as easy with our TB2 as with Mini and official Apple support) Edited November 16, 2018 by zoomer Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 19 minutes ago, zoomer said: D500 GPU(s) (?) yes i have 2 Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Yes, I know, but most Apps can't use both. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 can VW 2019? Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 I don’t think so. So far only GPU Render Engines and Final Cut. Jim said no a few years ago and did not read that anything has changed. Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 So then the Mac Pro is a waist of money if you are thinking "wow! I have 2 graphic cards!" and I don't like the iMac because I don't want to pay for a screen (screens last forever) so then a Mac Mini maxed out is the way to go... of course this whole conversation would be moot if VictorWhiskey was BravoRomeoOscarWhiskeySierraEchoRomeo BravoAlfaSierraEchoDelta Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 🙂 I never really wanted that nMac Pro. I had too as my cMac Pro got too weak for my projects at one point. At that time it was known that less CPU but double GPU (in macOS) will not help - but should change in about 2 years later when all Apps optimize for nMac Pro. Seems that didn't work out really well ..... On the other hand, it was very silent, didn't get hot and I could do my job with that trash can and VW/C4D very well the last 4 years. And what you do is very OpenGL demanding and you wouldn't get that easily anywhere else. 1 hour ago, digitalcarbon said: So then the Mac Pro is a waist of money if you are thinking "wow! I have 2 graphic cards!" At the end, I wouldn't think so. 1 hour ago, digitalcarbon said: so then a Mac Mini maxed out is the way to go... I don't think so. I can't be sure they will update it regularly and it is surely not enough to be 20% faster than a nearly 6 year old hardware. You should better wait for the mMac Pro. BTW, these Dual GPUs always run much better under Bootcamp Windows and there are some other issues beside Apple's current Hardware only. So it is more about overall Apple is still a good platform for 3D. Quote Link to comment
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