Vector and ACAD, using both

[archi_tec]

Hello, all

I am at school in my last semester of an Architectural Technologist program. The school uses Autocad 2005 only, I tried using VW10 last year, on my iMac G4, but found the switching between learning ACAD and VW at the same time to much.

This year I know ACAD, and VW 11 has supposedly fixed some frustrations with VW10, especially the compatibility with 2005.

So my question is, do I go back to working with both and doing most of my drafting on VW.

I am worried that when I pick up a job after school, the good money is on me finding myself in a ACAD company, so I should stick with ACAD and learn it as well as I can. But I really like VW and want to use it in the future as soon as I am working on my own, plus I can do my school work at home instead of the lab at school.

What to do, what to do, any advise?

another solution it to get a job in a VW firm, any leads for a job in Calgary....

Thanks in advance,

Tyler

[Mat Caird]

Use VW at school - you'll have more free time, and get a better result.

Bluff your way through the job interview - it's not like they're going to sit you in front of the computer for an hour to test your ability.

[Travis]

As an employer, I'm not a very big fan of the "bluff your way through" school.

Rather, be straightforward about your desire/efforts to produce great results regardless which software the potential employer utilizes. I, for one, would be much more impressed with your versatility and your commitment to excellence.

However, I would definitely use VW whenever I could ASSUMING I possess that somewhat rare ability to conceptualize in both environments. Acad and VW are not unlike speaking two different languages, or playing two different musical instruments. One must make a mental shift of substantial measure.

Good luck.

[Kurt Magness]

i know of some employers that do sit you down and test you (timed) on acad as part of your interview. but maybe you do not want to work for a firm that hires you on your acad abilities alone. it is unfortunate that acad is so dominate but lets face it vwks will never replace acad. i would try to stay up on both. As well as photoshop, web stuff, other 3d apps etc. the cooler firms use macs and vwks anyway, engineer types use acad. don't pigeon hole your self into a acad drafter, unless thats what you want to be.

[archi_tec]

I agree with you Kurt, I don't want to be pigeon holed. If I could find a VW firm in my area I would work hard to be hired by them, because I think your right, its the engineers that us ACAD and the cooler firms that use VW.

Thanks for the input everyone. I did upgrade my VW and am waiting (not so) patiently for it to arrive.

I hope I can handle the mental shift to play between them, it is like languages, but I only got a C- in my university french class so we will have to see.

Tyler

[David Bertrand]

Tyler,

I used ACAD for about 17 years in the San Diego area with structural engineers. I don't recall ever meeting anyone in either Architecture or Engineering who uses Vectorworks, which doesn't mean that they don't exist around here.

So based on my experience, I wouldn't omit ACAD.

I'm struggling to learn VW now. It is very different from ACAD and I'm wondering if I could hold a job using VW.

I was very productive in ACAD. The secret is to use use the command line interface with lots of hot keys. I avoided using pull-down menus and icons; they just slowed me down. I know it's not cool, but it works.

It's easy to learn to make keyboard shortcuts for nearly everything with one-line lisp routines. I even used hot keys to change layers (classes). Every few seconds saved adds up at the end of the day. Then, you can get out of the office on time.

Best of luck.

Dave

[mike m oz]

DB

HOTKEYS

VW has lots of keyboard shortcuts (ie. hotkeys) already built in - whenever you go to a menu you can see what they are. They are also listed in Appendix A of the VW manual.

You can also change these as you wish using the Workspace Editor.

SCRIPTING

Scripting in VW for item selection or viewing and preset tool modes is very easy and requires no knowledge of programming at all.

Slightly more complex scripting to achieve other objectives isn't that hard either.

Check out the scripting section of the manual on this.

There are also a plethora of free resources available through sites like VectorDepot and VectorBits. The latter has some good quality ones which are worth buying. Other resources can be found under the PARTNERS section of the NNA website.

USERS

You should be able to find other users in your area through your local VW dealer and local VW user group.

[Kurt Magness]

comand line interface ? ugh ! sounds likes your on acad from the late 80's, with a black screen and colors showing line weights still. Where's your puck and tablet ? Do you still prefer DOS because it is so much quicker than windows 3.1?

As an employer, I am more impressed with people with a broader knowledge of computer software and the ablity to use many programs and to adapt to changing program versions and new features. I hate Acad guys that will not learn new programs and adapt to changing interfaces. It reminds me of the old timers. The guys who wouldn't change to computer drafting when acad 1st came out. Lets all go back to the glory days of ruling pens, french curves, 30 & 60 ? triangles, and drafting powder.

You got to be able to learn new tricks in this business otherwise your going to be left behind. Anybody want to buy a parallel bar? or how bout a drafting machine?

[jan15]

Kurt,

You've misunderstood. Dave isn't doing anything old-fashioned. He's using the Autocad equivalent of keyboard shortcuts. The icons and pull-down menus are easier to learn and allow people who otherwise wouldn't be able to work in CAD to do so; but for those who can master it, the keyboard interface is the fastest way to work in either program.

Dave,

It's true that Vectorworks straight out of the box doesn't support customized keyboard use as well as Autocad does. But you can correct that by buying a macro utility and some extra function keys, the total bill for which would be a small fraction of the price difference between the two programs. If you do that, and take advantage of some features unique to Vectorworks, you can actually work a lot faster than in Autocad. Assign letter keys to all your commonly used tools, and take advantage of the keys that cycle through the different modes and sub-modes of each tool. Assign function keys to your commonly used commands. Use the arrow keys to quickly move around the drawing, or pan automatically by drawing off the screen. Use Ctrl-arrow keys to cycle through classes and layers. There are scripts, equivalent to Lisp routines, but you won't need them as much as you need Lisp because in VW most of the tools and commands already work the way they should. Macro routines alone will probably suffice as a replacement for Lisp. In Vectorworks you never have to draw any temporary or construction lines. If you mouse with the left hand, you can enter the dimensions of objects as you draw them, using the numeric keypad. No offsets needed to set dimensions, no @ symbols or other inconvenient keys needed to enter relative coordinates. Take advantage of Groups, real layering, surface drawing and editing, and other time-saving features not found in Autocad (don't let the names Group and Layer deceive you; they don't exist in Autocad).

[David Bertrand]

Tyler:

Kevin has it right. Also, you have to accept whatever software the employer is using. If you are working in AutoCad, you'll have to really get into it to be productive. And, you might hate that. So if you prefer VectorWorks, it'll be better to look for employment with that first.

[David Bertrand]

Hi Kurt,

I loved your response.

I did know some hand drafters who were unable or unwilling to make the switch to cad. They had to make a career change or retire.

Yes, I do come from the old days of pencil drafting. I tend to draw in ACAD the way I did by hand: line types and weights, rather than by function. I prefer a light gray screen, however. And I like the mouse; always disliked the tablet and puck -- too much head wagging. Even with the tablet, I used the CLI. I think it helps if you've spent much of your life touch typing.

I was a mediocre hand draftsman at best, so I hated it. It was only when they introduced computer drafting did I begin to excel. I discovered an aptitude for taking any cad software and using it productively.

When the company I was with switched to Windows version of ACAD, I found it slow and clumsy to use, so I stayed with the CLI. Those visual cues are a joke -- I turned off all the cues and the snaps, except for "intersection." I'm willing to "adapt to changing interfaces" if they work, but I couldn't see it working for ACAD. ACAD is basically a CLI driven program. It works faster that way.

The newer guys were trained on the GUI and I didn't try to change them, but continued providing them with keyboard shortcuts and blocks (symbols) if they wanted to use them. I never had any trouble keeping up however.

I'm learning VectorWorks now, just as a hobby. It doesn't seem to have the power of ACAD, but I'm still new at it. Frankly, all the mousing around bugs me; I keep moving in the wrong direction. But I do see now that VectorWorks is NOT a command line friendly program, so I won't try to make it so.

[David Bertrand]

Jan,

Thanks for the very informative reply. I will consider the macro utility in the future if I continue to work with VW.

Mouse with the left hand and use the right hand to enter dimensions? I can barely walk and chew gum at the same time. I'm using a Powerbook which has no keypad. I guess I could get a plug-in.

I think groups do exist in AutoCad. They're called blocks. Anyway, I prefer the way that AutoCad saves blocks (symbols) as .dwg files; they're easier to access and move around. But I still have a lot to learn about groups and symbols.

[Kevin]

Kurt, you bring back such fond memories. I forgot all about drafting powder. I wonder if you can still buy it?

Tyler: I have a friend who owns restaurants. In hiring waiters, he is not interested in job experience. In fact it is sometimes a handicap. He is interested in the person and whether they are nice. He says he can always teach job skillls, but cannot teach someone to be nice. Sometimes people who are very experienced are also set in their ways and do not want to learn how he wants it done.

I would be more concerned about finding a company that is a good fit for both you and the employer. You can always learn the software that they use.

[Kurt Magness]

a draftsperson of mine was looking for a job in LA. she interviewed several places. one place even did the acad speed test. she didn't do so good. she was bummed. thought she couldn't compete. wanted to take refresher coarse in acad. thought vwks was a handicap. she said vwks made her forget all the acad stuff she learned in school. self doubt.

then she went to one more interview. Suprise ! they all use macs & vwks! way cool young office. creative types with powerbooks, now she's stoked. better pay too.

moral to the story?

don't be discouraged by acad speed tests ?

practice your acad shortcuts ?

hold out for the best ?