CineEngineNEM R19 now (?)

[zoomer]

Are there any changes or anything to need to be aware of ?

 

(As nothing was mentioned in any release notes)

Edited September 13, 2018 by zoomer

[Guest Selin]

No, not really. If I realize something's different I'll be sure to post here but we don't expect that.

[zoomer]

Thanks Selin.

 

And is CineEngine R19 the solution to black Viewport Renders ?

[Guest Selin]

I can't confirm this unfortunately. However, we haven't seen any black vps in house after we updated. Still, I'm actively looking for a solution.

[zoomer]

Someone from the German Forum had asked ...

So not officially fixed, but if we are lucky the older threads about it will stay calm 🙂

[PVA - Admin]

I've been trying to get it to happen in the release build and so far I have not seen it, but i'll be working on a rendering project for the Summit soon and I'll be testing it even more heavily.

[Guest Selin]

Because not being able to reproduce doesn't mean this bug is fixed, I can't confirm it 😕 

[zoomer]

5 minutes ago, Selin said:

Because not being able to reproduce doesn't mean this bug is fixed, I can't confirm it 😕 

 

Well, if no one can reproduce from VW 2019 on, the situation isn't that bad 😉

[Guest Selin]

Oh wait there's one thing. CineRender R19 started showing plain yellow whenever an HDRI background image is not really an HDR. A lot of free images on the internet are labeled as HDRI but they only have 8 bits of color depth. So if you get a yellow tint from an HDRI background, the reason is this.

[zoomer]

OK, thank you.

(that is where we can use Image effects)

 

Have there been any significant or feature changes in CineEngine at all.

Forgot about the C4D feature updates but R17 or 18 brought new Reflection Model

and R20 brings node based Material - but R19 ?

 

EDIT : PBR Material ....

[Guest Selin]

The most notable R19 features for rendering were ProRender engine integration and spherical cameras. We don't have the ProRender engine which doesn't really perform well for the types of renderings our users do. The PBR material is to be used with ProRender.
We now use spherical cameras for Renderworks panoramas in VW2019. We used to stitch the spherical image ourselves which sometimes created seams. Now there shouldn't be any and we expect a performance increase too.

 

[zoomer]

I don’t miss ProRender very much.

 

But I would have liked PBR Materials which work in pure

C4D too, if they would have been organized like legacy

or VRAY Materials. but as their interface got cumbersome

by putting more and more in the Reflctance Channel,

I don’t miss them either.

[Dave Donley]

Thanks for the feedback zoomer, could you attach a C4D file with a couple materials you'd like us to be able to create in VW?

 

[zoomer]

Dave,

do you mean the C4D PBR Materials ?

 

I have only created a test Glass for ProRender at that time.

Until I realized that ProRender also works fine with my C4D Standard Materials,

beside the longer Shader Pre-Calculation.

 

Since VW RW's Reflection Update, I think I should be able to create the same

C4D Materials I normally create,

beside layered Textures and such things.

 

So if I would create any PBR Materials in C4D and import them,

they would also work with RW R19 ?

 

 

What I am mostly interested in is Fresnel in Dielectrics in Glass, Wood and Plastics

and Blurry Reflections in typical architectural Materials like like anodized Aluminium

facade panels.

(OK, these behave like some kind of dielectrics on top too)

[Dave Donley]

I would be curious to see a C4D file with your typical materials, to make sure we aren't missing something in the way we make them for RW.  We do try to map settings to good C4D shaders but just wondering if there is more we can do to match best.

 

I thought you might be talking about a Lambertian option or something more exotic.

 

Importing from C4D into RW should work too, that is the intention of the import feature.

 

[zoomer]

17 hours ago, Dave Donley said:

I thought you might be talking about a Lambertian option or something more exotic.

 

Oh no,

I don't mind much about which Shaders - GGX, Beckmann, .... is used.

Or any complex Shaders on Diffuse. I avoid any complex or costly effects

wherever possible. No Photorealism from my side.

Of course it should look nice at the end and have some real world approach.

I mostly use very simple and superficial Materials for my work.

And my special interests may not represent at all what the majority of RW

users may want and need.

 

My priority in order is this :

- Render Speed

- correct Absorption for GI

- Fresnel Reflections

- fake rounded Edges by Shader

 

So with the release of the new Metallic Reflection Shader, VW's RW Toolkit has

all what I need :

- Color or Texture for Diffuse

- some Procedural Textures

- Glow

- Metallic or "Clear Coat" Reflection with Roughness

- Transparency

- Bump or Displacement

 

If rarely needed more control like Glow hidden from Camera, round Edge Shader,

Texture Layering and such things I have to go over from C4D to VRAY or Modo

anyway.

 

 

But what I think that I and most other users would like to have would be a kind of

Overlay that brings some Variation into Materials and hides the obvious Tiling of

repetitive Textures.

Like one or more Layers of Noise, independent from Texture Size, that will

subtle influence Materials Saturation, Brightness, Color, Bump Strength, ...

 

That would be great for Materials or Image Fills in Landmark like

stone hardscape or larger green areas.

Same for Architects and large Brick Walls or Wood Plank areas.

 

 

 

 

[Dave Donley]

Good info, thanks very much zoomer!

 

[Guest Selin]

1 hour ago, zoomer said:

 

So with the release of the new Metallic Reflection Shader, VW's RW Toolkit has

all what I need :

- Color or Texture for Diffuse

- some Procedural Textures

- Glow

- Metallic or "Clear Coat" Reflection with Roughness

- Transparency

- Bump or Displacement

I am glad the Metallic shader is covering these needs! 

 

20 hours ago, zoomer said:

What I am mostly interested in is Fresnel in Dielectrics in Glass, Wood and Plastics

and Blurry Reflections in typical architectural Materials like like anodized Aluminium

facade panels.

(OK, these behave like some kind of dielectrics on top too)

Fun fact: the clear coat in the metallic shader is a Beckmann reflection layer with Glass Fresnel. In total there's three reflectance layers in the metallic shader, Anisotropic for scratches, a GGX layer for the base metal and a Beckmann layer for the clear coat. Brushed checkbox enables Aniso and clear coat reflection enables the glass layer. Base metallic layer that uses GGX is always on. 

 

Just wanted to mention this, in case you'd like to play with Reflectance layers in Vectorworks a little. Even though the UI makes it look like a simple metallic shader, it could be used to create some other fun materials too. 

[zoomer]

26 minutes ago, Selin said:

I am glad the Metallic shader is covering these needs! 

 

It was your idea in an earlier thread, that the Clear Coat can be used as

an advanced Reflection Shader for Dielectrics.

 

So now I can do my Dialectric Fresnels also directly in VW.

(Not being able to set different Fresnel IORs for Different Dielectrics isn't

much of an issue as there isn't much difference visible and Glass is ok)

Opposed to refraction IOR)

 

Yes, I am totally satisfied with the Metallic Reflection Shader.

It covers all my basic Material needs including advanced needs by Brushed Option.

 

Of course an Image Texture option on top would be welcome too.

[Guest Selin]

Thank you so much for the detailed feedback, as always!

[rDesign]

4 hours ago, Selin said:

I am glad the Metallic shader is covering these needs! 

 

Fun fact: the clear coat in the metallic shader is a Beckmann reflection layer with Glass Fresnel. In total there's three reflectance layers in the metallic shader, Anisotropic for scratches, a GGX layer for the base metal and a Beckmann layer for the clear coat. Brushed checkbox enables Aniso and clear coat reflection enables the glass layer. Base metallic layer that uses GGX is always on. 

 

Just wanted to mention this, in case you'd like to play with Reflectance layers in Vectorworks a little. Even though the UI makes it look like a simple metallic shader, it could be used to create some other fun materials too. 

 

Perhaps it already exists, but I'd love to see a video tutorial demonstrating what you and @zoomer have been describing here regarding advanced reflection shaders. Thanks.

 

[Guest Selin]

1 minute ago, rDesign said:

 

Perhaps it already exists, but I'd love to see a video tutorial demonstrating what you and @zoomer have been describing here regarding advanced reflection shaders. Thanks.

 

I might be able to make one if I can find time. But the essence is this, we're talking about the Reflectance channel system CineRender and Cinema4D introduced back in version R16.

It is a system where one can layer up layers of shaders that have different reflection models. Beckmann, GGX, Anisotropic are all types of those reflection models. Each layer can have a Fresnel affect as well. There are many videos explaining C4D's Reflectance channel. What I'm describing up there is how they are incorporated into the VW Metallic shader so if someone's familiar with what those layers do, they can actually play with them using VW. 

[zoomer]

Not familiar with video productions here ...

 

 

If you want to create any pure Metal,

set Diffuse to 0.00 or black and use "Metallic" in Reflection Channel.

 

If you want to create anything else than a Metall (or Semi Conductor)

it is a Dielectric, like most of Building Materials we deal with in Reality.

Set Diffuse to an appropriate Color or Texture,

also choose the "Metallic Shader in Reflection Channel,

like This :

 

 

So far no convincing Preview as the strong Metal Reflection Values will overlay your complete Diffuse Color.

 

 

The Shader Settings in Editing Mode by default may look like this :

 

 

 

Ignore the Preset.

But for a Dielectric Materials set you will deactivate :

a) "Metall Reflection" to 0.00

b) "Metall Roughness" to 0.00

you should also deactivate

c) "Brushed" option

 

Which will then look like this :

 

 

Already looks like a convincing Plastic with its 100% Fresnell Reflection

along its outline.

 

 

Click OK to accept.

Your Material Preview of a nice Physically Correct Semi Glossy Red Plastik

will now look like this :

 

 

 

And will require some proper Lighting and Environment to really look good.

 

 

 

All Materials, as long as they are not (too) rough,

will Reflect 100% of the light, when you look straight along its Face.

But Dielectrics will reflect much less light when you look perpendicular

to their Surface. (about only 5-8%)

Opposed to Metals that do reflect much more light in this case,

depending on which Metall Material.

 

Between 0° and 90°, the change happens by a nice curve.

The Fresnel Curve.

The Curve is pretty similar for all, like quadratic with a small bumb before the end.

All Dielectrics start very low at the beginning for 0° along Surface Normal = Perpendicular

(those low 5-8%) and so look quite similar to each other, while Metals start higher and

there is more variation at 0°. Like Steel and Chrome about 60% up to Silver with more than 90%.

(That is why silver is behind a Glass for a Mirror)

But all Curves will finally end at 100% for 90°.

 

So the Fresnel Algorithm in Shaders will dampen that perpendicular reflection.

So that you can look perpendicular through a Glass Window Pane, while at angles

the Reflection will increase more and more the Transparency.

Same for your Vinyl Floor, it will look worn and diffuse if you look straight down,

but the more you look sideways along the room it will look more and more

reflective and less blurry.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by zoomer

[rDesign]

@zoomer Thank you for your extensive response. This is really awesome! I’ve seen tutorials on C4D textures before, but as I’m not very experienced with C4D, I find it really helpful to have Vw-specific guidance.

 

I am still using Vw2016 (even though I have a current VSS subscription), and I was struggling to make a decent looking glossy white ceramic porcelain material in Vw2016. Perhaps CineEngine has been improved enough in the recent Vw version updates that I can finally get my bathroom fixtures looking more realistic. Thanks again for your incredibly helpful direction!

[zoomer]

In previous VW Versions I always used the Fake Fresnel workaround :

The Glass Reflection Shader in Reflective Channel.

 

With its 2-color input black and white you also control the amount of

Reflection depending on looking angle.

Default is black (=0.00%) for perpendicular and white (=100 %) at

glancing angle.

 

As I said Dielectric don't start with 0 % but 5-8%, it should not be black

but 92-98 % black (or 5-8 % white) which you need to change and add

as a custom color.

White swatch =100 % is ok.

 

You should stay with black and white for Dielectrics as these have

always white Refelctions.

Opposed to some Metals, where the Fresnel Curve splits wavelength

depending, which gives a slight color tinting. Like golden for Gold

or copper for Copper.

As Metals have no Diffuse and Reflection Color, This Color will give

Metals overall color.

 

 

And it is Fake Fresnel because it is not a real Curve but a linear Gradient

only, which you will notice in your Renderings when you look close.

It just doesn't look right - but far better than nothing Fresnel-like

or other legacy modes.

 

 

So your Ceramic should have :

- Diffuse White (Bright gray as nothing is really 100% white or reflecting 100% of light)

- Reflection Glass > 95% black + pure white

 

I used the same Glass Shader for Metal :

- Diffuse Black

- about 40% Black (or 60% gray) + pure white

(An Aluminium would start with 8 % black only (or 92% bright grey))