VELFAC windows

[RDS Casa]

Hello. Can anyone help on the velfac windows included in the library? 

 

I tried just dropping in the Velfac windows from the libraries. They don't look anything like the 200 (very popular) series. To me, they just look like some generic Lego style window which is named as velfac? I can't get the catalogue thing to work at all? any pointers?

 

So I tried making my own simplified version. This has been better, but still frustrating. If you look at the attached file you will see two approaches. The one on the west wall is the best so far.

 

(to understand the issue here, its important to understand the velfac geometry, where the opening sash sits in line with the internal timber frame. https://velfac.co.uk/domestic/technical/velfac-200/ ) 

 

See attached VW file.

 

West wall. This was created using the settings and the offsets. Its a simplified version of the Velfac geometry. BUT for some reason it continues to want to sit the wrong way around in the wall. I don't know why this is. But if you try to add a cill, it wants to put it on the inside, so I know I have something wrong here. When I "reverse" in the settings, It seems to want to take a big chunk out the Jamb. Presumably because it thinks this is some kind of inward opening unit, so auto cuts back the jamb? So I'm currently having to use these the wrong way around with no cills.

 

The one on the north wall is trying to use an architrave for the internal timber frame. This looks ok in plan, but only applies the architrave to the jamb and head, missing the cill member out. 

 

On the south wall is another version, based on the first. Here I tried to set it as a fixed casement (even though in reality it needs to be a side hung). The fixed casement options stops the configuration from automatically taking the chunk out the jamb. BUT I can't get this to sit the right way around in the wall? 

 

Any advice on where I'm going wrong, or better how the proper Velfac windows should work from the library?

 

Thanks

 

velfac window test.vwx

[Guest Wes Gardner]

Correct me if I'm wrong...the GEOMETRY for any window is the standard Vectorworks geometry.  The SIZE of the window and the DATA that appears in a Window Schedule will be specific to a selected catalog window.

[Robert Anderson]

RDS Casa, you are correct, the sash width offsets are incorrect in the libraries. The Vectorworks window can do a reasonable approximation (say LOD 300) of a Velfac window. I have entered a bug for this in our tracking system. In the meantime, if you need to make a Velfac window, the following settings in the "Sash and Jamb" pane of the Window dialog should get you there: Hope this helps.

[RDS Casa]

Thanks all.

 

@Wes Gardner You might not be wrong... but on this one its not really about the schedule. Its exactly as @Robert Anderson has suggested, LOD300. I want the GA plans to look correct enough at 1:50, and for some of them to form the basis of the the details which I CAD over in 2D. 

 

Velfac send out a full schedule in their own format anyway, which

A: in 10 years they have never got entirely right regardless of the schedule I send them from which its generated,

B: they always insist their schedule is signed before order, even if I ask them to just follow our schedule.

 

So, I now just give them the Structural openings and elevations drawings, because I have to go through their schedule with a fine tooth comb anyway. Its just quicker to red pen their work. 

 

@Robert Anderson Thanks, these settings are an improvement on the ones I was using, Thanks so much for taking the time. BUT, I still think these suffer from the orientation issue? When you turn the cill on, it appears on the wrong side of the window? i.e. the inside. When you flip it in the wall, so the cill is on the outside, the geometry is completely thrown out (maybe because something in the PIO is telling it to cut back the jambs to suit an inward opening window?)

 

I've tried to demonstrate  this in the updated attached test. On the north wall, I have now plugged your jamb and sash numbers in. As you can see on the left (in plan), it works nicely, but the cill is on the wrong side (I've pulled one out the wall to demonstrate). On the right I tried flipping it. The cill moves to the correct side of the wall but the (careful considered LOD 300) geometry is thrown out. Its like it flips the cill, but not the frame. When you pull it out the wall, the cill is on the correct side relative to the wall, but not the window, although the window geometry corrects itself? 

 

Thanks again to both of you for taking the time to respond.

 

 

velfac window test.vwx

[Robert Anderson]

@RDS Casa, I'll look into the issue of the window sills. It may be that I have to reverse the sign on an offset. I'll let you know.

[Robert Anderson]

 

I've looked at your file, and it looks to me like a bug in the sill code. For now, I'd recommend turning off sills and placing them as independent symbols. See the attached file: Sill_test_v2018.vwx

 

I'll submit your other file to the Window/Door engineer as a bugfile. Thanks!

[RDS Casa]

Thanks. 

 

When you are fixing it, maybe we can have an aluminum option? the aluminum pressed metal cills are a standard option with both Velfac and Ideal combi, who make up good sized  part of the market in the uk. The aluminum cil option would be a good addition to the velfac type window. 

 

They are made by a company called Finish Aluminum. I can send you a profile drawing if you need it. They are not complicated in section. Easily within this LOD300 type level.

 

Thanks again for looking at this. 

[line-weight]

Any progress on this since 2018?

 

I want to draw up some Velfac windows. As per the OP I'd like them to be reasonably plausible at least at 1:50 scale.

 

Wondering if this means I have to build something from scratch myself, or whether anyone's managed to bash the VW (or Windoor) objects into something "near enough".

[Tom W.]

22 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Wondering if this means I have to build something from scratch myself, or whether anyone's managed to bash the VW (or Windoor) objects into something "near enough".

 

I use the VW Window tool for my Velfac windows. They are plausible enough for my purposes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[line-weight]

Cheers. For those triple-light ones, do you put 3 VW window objects next to each other, or do you manage to do a 3-pane window within the VW style options?

 

(I'm currently trying to battle my way through understanding how catalog variants are supposed to work, have started another thread on that here)

[Tom W.]

I think I tried it as a single Window object initially: it looked fine externally

 

But not internally

 

Because you want to show a pair of abutting jambs at each mullion:

 

 

What I ended up with was my own hybrid symbol placed in an opening made by an uncased Door inserted in the Wall. This was because I was using Wall closures + wanted a shim gap: these are both provided by the uncased Door opening then the Velfac window is just placed inside it.

 

In an earlier version of the model before I introduced Wall Closures I think I had three Window objects side by side but this resulted (I think) in lines between them in Top/Plan which didn't look good so I think at that point I grouped the three windows + inserted them in a separately-made opening. Why I then converted the grouped Windows into a dedicated symbol I can't remember but there must have been a reason! I think perhaps initially I didn't have the separately-made opening + just inserted my  triple-window symbol directly in the Wall + applied the Wall Closures to it but then realised I needed a shim gap which necessitated doing it the way I ended up doing it...? 

 

[line-weight]

yes, that issue with the internal appearance is just what I was thinking would happen.

 

I'm going to have a bit of a fiddle with the Windoor tool to see if it can produce a usable approximation.

 

(That would mean I can't use wall closures though, right?)

[Tom W.]

30 minutes ago, line-weight said:

yes, that issue with the internal appearance is just what I was thinking would happen.

 

I'm going to have a bit of a fiddle with the Windoor tool to see if it can produce a usable approximation.

 

(That would mean I can't use wall closures though, right?)

 

I believe you can use Wall Closures with WinDoor however my problem with WinDoor is that you can't class the interior/exterior separately in order to have one colour outside + a different colour inside, + likewise the threshold has to be the same class as the frame so again can't be different colours/textures. Unless someone knows different although I did post about this over a year ago + no one said anything to the contrary... 

[Christiaan]

When I was modelling Velfac windows a few years back I would use symbols made up of multiple window objects. I included the sill packer, sill flashing and internal reveals. I haven't tried using Wall Closures with 3D symbols but I believe that's workable. The problem with this approach now is scheduling. Could you use Graphic Legend with this approach? I'm not sure.

velfac_window.vwx

 

[line-weight]

Well, here (file attached) is the thing I've ended up building to suit my current purposes.

 

The individual sections are inserted as windows into a kind of dummy wall - this is actually quite handy for keeping everything aligned. I did that because it's the only way to make the corner windows work. Frustratingly, you can't make a corner join to a sloping-top window, so this is the bit that I can't make work - the larger portion of the glass-to-glass corner window needs to have a sloping top. For the final version of the drawing, therefore, I'll probably have to do that bit manually unless anyone has any clever suggestions.

 

I have bodged things a bit and used an external architrave to make part of what is actually the casement frame itself. This means, what I've built doesn't really work if I want to show anything open. However, it gets me close-ish to how I want to see things in section.

 

Was this quicker than modelling the whole thing from scratch? No. However, now I've built it, it's relatively easy to make changes and adjustments to the opening sizes and proportions, much easier than would be the case if modelled from scratch.

 

velfac-ch.vwx

[Christiaan]

That's the best approach I reckon.

[line-weight]

Latest experiments in Velfac window-making:

 

I want to start using wall closures and this rules out the bodge solution above (putting separate window objects into a dummy wall).

 

Also, I want to start using "show 2d components" in my horizontal sections.

 

Even if I can manage to build something approximating a Velfac frame, the fact that VW is unable to draw a window properly in 2d plan component view means that I can't use it in a horizontal section with "show 2d components" switched on.

 

This afternoon I tried with WinDoor. It fails on multiple slightly different counts. It can't have different inner/outer materials for the frames. You can make a very simple representation of a multiple-section Velfac window (basically just a single 149x50 rectangle for each "sash" with a very thing "frame" or mullions inbetween) but it can't draw glass with any thickness (ridiculous at larger scales if you've got triple glazing) nor can you control where the glass sits within the sash, and it draws the glass sliding right through the sash. It would just about do for 1:100 and maybe 1:50 but nothing larger. Additionally if you make the sash overlap the frame, it can't draw this properly - it fails to occlude the frame where the sash overlaps it so you get lines that shouldn't be there.

 

So, I think the only solution is really to model each window from scratch, make into a symbol and insert into walls & take advantage of wall closures. That's the only way I can get this software to draw me a window, at a scale larger than about 1:100 and have it look ok on a floorplan, that is match the standards I'd expect if I was drafting it in 2d. It's a very poor show.

Edited December 6, 2023 by line-weight