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Bret

VW2019 Fundamentals - Tools Taken Away

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From an email I received today:

 

Quote

"...the focus of Fundamentals [is changing] to 2D/3D CAD to better serve users like you and set a clearer research and development roadmap for the future. To achieve this, we’re removing the industry-specific tools and menu commands with the release of version 2019."

 

With 2019, Fundamentals users are having these tools taken away: Spaces, Doors, Walls, Windows, Columns, Stairs and Ramps.

 

I'm fairly annoyed at these tools being removed (if nothing else, we use walls frequently as a layout tool), but I'm really annoyed by the marketing spin about how it's being done in the name of serving me better. There's no possible upside for Fundamentals users, and I don't like that VW would pretend that there is. The real goal has to be users upgrading to more-expensive packages...nothing else really makes sense to me. Is there something I'm missing?

 

Anyway, if nothing else, I just wanted to register my frustration and give a heads-up to any Fundamentals users who might not be aware of this yet.

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In the age of the TRUMP presidency and fake news. everything is up for grabs or for sale. “Truth isn’t truth”...

 

I agree with Bret. Even though I don’t use the tools being removed. The problem is the preception of someone trying to tell you less is more. We have lost trust in everything.

 

Very Sad.

 

 

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If this is not "Trumping" Vectorworks' feathers: I'll advise my fundamentals clients not to upgrade then. It also makes the step in version of Vectorworks a lot less useful so more difficult to get people to make a first step in our direction. Pity.

 

 

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On 8/22/2018 at 11:17 AM, Bret said:

From an email I received today:

 

 

With 2019, Fundamentals users are having these tools taken away: Spaces, Doors, Walls, Windows, Columns, Stairs and Ramps.

 

I'm fairly annoyed at these tools being removed (if nothing else, we use walls frequently as a layout tool), but I'm really annoyed by the marketing spin about how it's being done in the name of serving me better. There's no possible upside for Fundamentals users, and I don't like that VW would pretend that there is. The real goal has to be users upgrading to more-expensive packages...nothing else really makes sense to me. Is there something I'm missing?

 

Anyway, if nothing else, I just wanted to register my frustration and give a heads-up to any Fundamentals users who might not be aware of this yet.

 

This is a really unfortunate decision to take away these “industry” tools from Fundamentals 2019.

 

I can’t wait for the User Forums to be filled with angry, unaware Fundamentals users asking why tools they had in 2018 were stripped away in 2019. 

 

Hopefully the price of Fundamentals will be slashed accordingly with the removal of all these tools that were once included.

Edited by rDesign
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Maybe the name will change as well: from Fundamentals to Make and combine the other flavors to Pro. Like someone else does…?

Maybe it will be explained later how new customers will take advantage of this clear roadmap. 

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If this is true, perhaps its related to the rumour about a web based version of VW. Complex PIO objects might be a challenge to port to a web version especially for the initial version.

 

Kevin

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I haven't discussed this broadly with our team yet, but I could see a number of them being unwilling to update (downgrade?) to VW2019 Fundamentals if it means giving up those tools...which could mean we'll be on 2018 for a while. Guess we'll see what happens.

 

While there's an offer to upgrade to an industry series product for free, nobody's excited to have our annual subscription fees jump significantly just to keep using the same options we already have access to.

 

@Kevin McAllister I could imagine some utility to a web-accessible "lite" version of VW, but I shudder to think that Fundamentals would become browser-only.

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I always saw it like this :

 

VW Light

VW Building (Arch, Landscape, City planning)

VW Entertainment (Spotlight)

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41 minutes ago, Bret said:

While there's an offer to upgrade to an industry series product for free, nobody's excited to have our annual subscription fees jump significantly just to keep using the same options we already have access to.

 

^ I have no sense of what the subscription fee is for Fundamentals..... (I'm running Designer and can't imagine downgrading.)

Did you gain Renderworks for free when it became bundles with all versions a few years ago?

 

Kevin

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6 minutes ago, zoomer said:

I always saw it like this :

 

VW Light

VW Building (Arch, Landscape, City planning)

VW Entertainment (Spotlight)

 

I can understand seeing it that way from an architect's perspective. However, our structural engineering office has been using VW for production work since v8.5 and has put out thousands of sets of plans in that time, always using the basic/Fundamentals level of the software.

 

Our engineers each do their own drafting - primarily 2D work, so no rendering necessary.

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I had seen Mechanical and Structural Engineering in the Building or AEC group

but thought there aren't that much.

Taking PIOs out of Fundamental is pity for all who used it of course.

But plain 2D and simple 3D should work well and looks a bit more consequent

than including stripped down PIOs.

Edited by zoomer

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I personally would prefer getting more robust 3D tools that I can use for building and rendering complex 3D design models. However that said.. The cost for updates to subscription plans has become a issue for all my clients. For example. the Adobe CC monthly fees have gone up double since the start and I don't see that stopping. When you have 10 workstations it's allot. I see a day coming when employees will be required to bring their own software tools (like the really old days) when we had to buy our own drafting tools. Some software companies have become dependent on bumping subscription plans rather than innovation. But then Isn't the root cause of the cost increases the the direct result or changes in OS software. Changes require vendors to devote engineering time to OS changes rather than new and useful features. We have become victims of "FUTURE SHOCK".

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From the 2019 Fundamentals release feature list, I could see us making use of the Class/Layer filtering, and I'm curious to see how much real-world difference the Multi-core support, graphics updates, and OIP update make for our projects. Still, losing the wall tool would a few regular workflows to change (for slower methods, I'd expect), so I guess we'll just have to evaluate whether the update is worth taking that hit.

 

I'm disappointed that I even have to evaluate a tradeoff like this - it definitely dampens my enthusiasm for the v2019 release.

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Im also highly irritated with vector works trying to sell this as a win for its client base. Gee thanks!

 

They have just stopped a whole lot of users upgrading and paying an ongoing subscription which is their loss. Do they really think we will all upgrade to Architect. Sketch up is better 3d program for the price. My other license is Architect. 

 

I had begrudgingly bought a second license of fundamentals for a future employee as an attempt to capitalise on their recent EOY sale. I also paid for service select when I dont need it. 

 

I will be stopping the auto renew feature and asking for the service select fee back. I am wondering if we should start a petition to let vectorworks know how unpopular this move is. Is anyone interested?

They are definitely losing their client base / loyalty in my opinion. I used to love vectorworks. Is this around the world or just in Australia?

 

The whole increasing cost of license seems unfair as these companies have an absolute monopoly on the market and are increasingly more greedy. A license now costs more than a computer.  

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The point everybody seemingly misses is that every single one of the industry features that were present were limited in some way, either by itself or by the lack of other BIM tools. For me the best example is the wall tool in Fundamentals. You cannot save a wall style as a resource, meaning you have to recreate it every single time (or save walls as objects in a template, which is a very annoying workflow). Plus if you don't have the other BIM tools that you find in Architect, having something like a downgraded wall really makes no sense. It's not like you can build a BIM model with Fundamentals, even with these 5 tools that now have been removed.

 

At the very least it is now finally clear: Fundamentals is for those who do not have an industry-specific workflow (even if they might work in a specific industry). The industries series is for all other professionals. 

 

BTW, last year something was moved over from the industry series to fundamentals: the ability to export PDF. This was deemed logical for the context in which a typical Fundamental user works. No-one complained about that, but the logic has to go both ways. And this leads to the removal of those 5 tools.

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On 8/27/2018 at 5:17 PM, Gerard Jonker said:

If this is not "Trumping" Vectorworks' feathers: I'll advise my fundamentals clients not to upgrade then. It also makes the step in version of Vectorworks a lot less useful so more difficult to get people to make a first step in our direction. Pity.

  

 

 

I'm sorry Gerard, but that last statement seems incorrect. If your customers are indeed using these tools, then they are doing it in such a way that they don't do BIM. Which these days in the Netherlands is rather uncommon. But even if they don't need BIM, then these US-centric tools are hardly adapted to the market in the Netherlands. So you might advice your customers that way, but to me it feels like you are doing them a disservice. You are making it sound as if the removal of those 5 tools is all that has happened in Fundamentals 2019, and that is simply false. Just look at the feature list that applies to 2019, and you'll see there is a LOT of added value.

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5 hours ago, BaRa said:

The point everybody seemingly misses is that every single one of the industry features that were present were limited in some way, either by itself or by the lack of other BIM tools. For me the best example is the wall tool in Fundamentals. You cannot save a wall style as a resource, meaning you have to recreate it every single time (or save walls as objects in a template, which is a very annoying workflow). Plus if you don't have the other BIM tools that you find in Architect, having something like a downgraded wall really makes no sense. It's not like you can build a BIM model with Fundamentals, even with these 5 tools that now have been removed.

 

At the very least it is now finally clear: Fundamentals is for those who do not have an industry-specific workflow (even if they might work in a specific industry). The industries series is for all other professionals. 

 

BTW, last year something was moved over from the industry series to fundamentals: the ability to export PDF. This was deemed logical for the context in which a typical Fundamental user works. No-one complained about that, but the logic has to go both ways. And this leads to the removal of those 5 tools.

 

Interesting that you use the wall tool as an example - it's the only one we use regularly, limitations aside, and it certainly can make sense for a 2D project.

 

A simple example: we import plans for a residence and want to quickly draw continuous foundations for a raised floor system. We set a default foundation width as the wall thickness, define a custom offset to accommodate alignment with the stemwall, and now we can lay out our foundations easily by point-to-point tracing the exterior of the building (regardless of the designer's drafting style or plan quality). If a footing needs to change thickness, we update it in the object info palette, and it adjusts while maintaining its intersection graphics.

 

This approach saves time versus trying to do the same work with rectangles or polygons, even if we're not using any of the wall's 3D capabilities. Our engineers have been using this workflow since 2000 (VW 8.5), and if we upgrade, it goes away. That's a loss for us, even though we don't use VW for BIM.

 

Regarding your final point, Export to PDF was not a particularly useful addition for anyone already using VW, since 1) professional users were certainly already using one of a number of .pdf print drivers readily available (from Adobe, Bluebeam, pdfFactory, etc.), and 2) batch export was not provided to Fundamentals users, so for someone with another .pdf printer already installed, there's no benefit. Even allowing that some people did benefit from it, nothing was being pulled back from any customer, so there was nothing for anyone to complain about. Being given one tool doesn't mean anyone has to be satisfied when an unrelated tool is taken away.

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Export PDF used to be available on Mac for Fundamentals users, probably using the Mac's built in PDF capabilities(?). It has been dropped in 2016 I believe.

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19 hours ago, BaRa said:

 

I'm sorry Gerard, but that last statement seems incorrect. If your customers are indeed using these tools, then they are doing it in such a way that they don't do BIM. Which these days in the Netherlands is rather uncommon. But even if they don't need BIM, then these US-centric tools are hardly adapted to the market in the Netherlands. So you might advice your customers that way, but to me it feels like you are doing them a disservice. You are making it sound as if the removal of those 5 tools is all that has happened in Fundamentals 2019, and that is simply false. Just look at the feature list that applies to 2019, and you'll see there is a LOT of added value. 

BIM is used in a small minority (number) of projects, (which is not the same as volume). Walls are easily setup for Dutch standard. By keeping portions of Walls lying about on separate layers, or copying them from older projects you can bypass to some extend the fact they can not be saved in styles. Replacing one style for another is a bit cumbersome, but for an architect on a budget apparently something they can overcome. And finally: Be very careful judging the advise I give to my clients on a forum like this, hiding under an abbreviation. What my clients happily use may not be exactly what I advise them to buy. But if they insist on working in Fundamentals, yes, I might advise them not to upgrade. Over and out.

Edited by Gerard Jonker

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I have been a user since Minicad 4. I like Vectorworks!

 

I also use the "other guy's"  software 3D, proficiently and seamlessly be tween the two platforms.

 

Vectorworks has removed 50 of the industry specific objects from the new version of Fundamentals Design Software package.

I order to get these tools back they would like you to upgrade to one of their other software packages. For an additional fee!

 

I have a list from Vectorworks.

 

I consider those objects to be one of the items that sets Vectorworks apart from the "other guys".

They are tools I use quite often in my design process.

 

Too bad this will drive some of their users away. I use the software for my own personal use, at home for my projects.

 

There is more to the story, That I won't divulge here.

 

Just wanted to put it out there before you make a decision to renew any service select contracts this coming year.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited by mhobbs

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I hope more an more Fundamental users stumble across this topic.

 

The wall is a major component of our fabrication. It represents a component that has been used since I was using MiniCad.

 

It has been introduced into our Mining / Industrial / Commercial client base over the last 25yrs and has been adopted my them since.

 

It's not just a wall. For many business like us it represents something else. In our case Kickplate / Kickboard for grating / mesh flooring.

 

Please vote your displeasure at removing this one component as soon as you read this.

 

I'm not sure where VW gets the idea that they know what their clients want since these and past changes were never given a vote from us. I think they think they are like the parliamentarians that run our countries who think they know what the people want until there is a big uproar.

 

Kickplate.JPG

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Thanks rjtideman 😊

 

Unfortunately our local supply says we have no chance in seeing it returned to VW2019. I'm guessing this is because VW say..

 

Quote "the change helps Vectorworks better understand your needs as a Fundamentals user, so the Vectorworks R&D team can chart a clear development roadmap, ensuring that Fundamentals will remain the superior 2D/3D CAD program you rely on. We believe having the right features to solve your design problems, and having those features designed in the right way, is best for everyone."

 

"the change helps VW better understand !!!!!" SO THEY MAKE THE CHANGE AND THEN UNDERSTAND THE RESULT???? Really, how stupid can this team be?

 

VW R&D team are clearly out of touch with their client base .. just like any parliamentarian, they do what they want without asking the question or making the question widespread. They are relying on this forum for feedback, even though very few visit this forum compared to their client base.

 

Wouldn't it be nicer to send a questionnaire through the VW software as a message before the R&D (who are not using the software in the big wide world of business) make a decision as big as this one?

 

Sorry to rant. Having passionately supported VW for 25yrs and introducing VW to businesses as I progress and then being shot in the foot for trying, of course I'm upset. But here's a choice to those above who are considering dropping out of Select Choice ... upgrade first and then don't pay next years Select Choice subscription. Quote "You will receive the module for free and won’t pay any additional fee until your next Service Select renewal" and you won't renew.

 

However, make your choice wisely since they will sting you if you quit and then they reintroduce the wall back into Fundamentals because they will ask for the new Select Support fee to rejoin .... or is that their fiendish plan?

 

Please rally more people to increase the views/comments on this subject. We won't lose until we give up.

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On 8/28/2018 at 7:54 AM, Jan-Burger TROOST said:

Will the now well equiped Educational Version stay the same in the new portfolio?

 

Stuff has been missing from the Education version (Designer) forever. I have enough posts on it and to be fair  @Jim did get some stuff reinstated but broadly speaking we still don't get everything we need but small steps forward are better than backwards as explained in this thread.

 

I never understood the paranoia compared to other vendors who actively push their software onto edu users with no difference between full and edu version.

 

 

 

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