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willofmaine

Hybrid Objects in Hybrid Symbols: Invisible Geometry

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With Vectorworks 2018 (and maybe 2017 - I can't remember) I've been plagued by invisible 3D geometry - especially, and most consistently, by the invisible 3D geometry of hybrid objects contained within hybrid symbols when the 2D component of the host (container) symbol is edited.  The geometry is there (in 3D views), as expected: if I hover over it with the cursor, its preselection highlighting shows; and if I select it, its selection highlighting shows, and it's present in the OIP.  Otherwise, it's not visible.  An exception to this does seem to be walls, which are visible in all cases.  See attached file.

 

Then yesterday I found this post: 

Unified View?!?  So I tried turning off Unified View and, voila, suddenly, the 3D geometry of hybrid objects is visible in the 2D component of hybrid symbols, as expected!!

 

I'm guessing this may also apply to the other instances of invisible geometry that I've been experiencing, but those are sporadic and hard to verify.

 

Of course, having to constantly turn Unified View off and on is not ideal, so hopefully this issue can be confirmed and, maybe along with the invisible 3D loci, be fixed.  (I sort of feel like the invisible 3D loci is a problem that was previously resolved, but that has now I guess returned to haunt us some more?...).  VWIS112 

06-Hybrid Objects Invisible-05.vwx

Edited by willofmaine

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20 minutes ago, Alan Woodwell said:

@willofmaineHi, i think one of the reasons the auto hybrid does not show up is you have it set up wrong.

See video about Auto hybrids and how they should work.

 

HTH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo3erdwpF40

 

What's wrong about the way his Auto Hybrids are set up? I don't see anything wrong in that regard.

 

But I do see the same invisibility issues he's outlined, and he's described them in a very detailed way.

 

@willofmaine - if you haven't already, submit a bug using a link at the bottom of the page, and include your file or a link to this thread. Hopefully it's a bug they can fix because it's quite annoying.

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@Andy BroomellHi if you look at the auto hybrid in his example within the hybrid he uses by object and not a specific class. It’s like walls and components, if you don’t use by class you will find things harder to control.

the method in the video come from Jonathon Pickup (the guru)

i had this fro someone from work today the auto hybrid did not she in top plan. As soon as I st them on the correct assigned class all was good.

try how it’s done in video and you will see the benefits.

HTH

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7 hours ago, Alan Woodwell said:

@willofmaineHi, i think one of the reasons the auto hybrid does not show up is you have it set up wrong.

See video about Auto hybrids and how they should work.

 

HTH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo3erdwpF40

 

 

Here's an updated file in which the Auto Hybrid has its 2D cut-plane representation set to use a class.  It makes absolutely no difference: it's the 3D geometry of hybrid objects, not just the Auto Hybrid, that's the problem.  (And, anyway, usually I do have Auto Hybrids represented by classes, though sometimes I do use by object; either way, I've never had issues with the 2D visibility of Auto Hybrids).

07-Hybrid Objects Invisible-06.vwx

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7 hours ago, Andy Broomell said:

But I do see the same invisibility issues he's outlined, and he's described them in a very detailed way.

 

@willofmaine - if you haven't already, submit a bug using a link at the bottom of the page, and include your file or a link to this thread. Hopefully it's a bug they can fix because it's quite annoying.

 

@Andy Broomell - Thanks for confirming that you're experiencing the same issue.  I will pursue submitting it as a bug.

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4 hours ago, willofmaine said:

 

@Andy Broomell - Thanks for confirming that you're experiencing the same issue.  I will pursue submitting it as a bug.

 

Its definitely there. Its related to this wishlist item - 

Feel free to upvote it if you haven't already.

 

The issue is related to a change in recent versions of Vectorworks where changing view type (2d Top/Plan vs. 3d) while editing in symbols commits the objects and changes you from editing the 2d component to 3d component or vice versa. I believe its working as designed. Unfortunately its badly designed.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

 

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Hi, So in this file i have manipulated the Auto Hybrid to be invisible and note all classes are turned on.

So i still believe that its not a bug.

I can easily adjust it to be on or off.

Regards

 

Have turned it back on and added the screen shot and see all classes are still same, all on.

 

AlanCapture.thumb.jpg.6def866ef4e3e6d694b3c679734adf57.jpg

06-Hybrid Objects Invisible-05.vwx

Capture Turned on.JPG

Edited by Alan Woodwell

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Alan, all you've done is set the cut plane really high and made the depth only 1", so of course nothing is going to show up. 🙂

 

Unfortunately I don't think you're on the same page as willofmaine. Ignore the AutoHybrid settings. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the issue he's describing. In fact, ignore the AutoHybrid object completely. The issue he's talking about applies to all Hybrid objects, including Symbols. It's purely to do with nested hybrid objects and the fact that 3D objects are sometimes invisible in editing modes, even when in 3D views. Also, it has nothing to do with classes.

 

I'm not sure what aspects of it are a "bug" versus broken as designed, but I can say that it happens inconsistently, and inconsistency is always bad. In general, there should never be a time where we can be in a 3D view and the 3D objects are there and selectable, but invisible. It just doesn't really make sense. And perhaps it has something to do with the invisible loci/lights bug, not sure...

 

For the past few versions I must say there have been a lot of issue with things being invisible. As one bug is fixed it seems another one appears. Nothing should ever be invisible (unless turned off completely, of course).

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8 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

 

The issue is related to a change in recent versions of Vectorworks where changing view type (2d Top/Plan vs. 3d) while editing in symbols commits the objects and changes you from editing the 2d component to 3d component or vice versa. I believe its working as designed. Unfortunately its badly designed.

 

Kevin

 

The many inconsistencies (3D geometry is invisible but selectable in the OIP; it's visible if the symbol is flipped; it's visible if Unified View is turned off) make me think (or maybe hope) it's not even working as designed.  It feels more like an extreme combination of badly designed and not working as designed... 

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Another factor that contributes to misbehaving nested objects... If one of the nested objects is flipped.

 

Normally if you edit a flipped symbol, the view flips to match the way it was created and you can't see objects outside of the container (which sucks but that's beside the point).

 

However, if a flipped hybrid symbol is nested inside another symbol, when you edit the 3D component you end up with invisible geometry, or geometry that is displays off to the side compared to where it actually exists.

 

I've been able to narrow in on a repeatable example - file attached below.

 

987080433_ScreenShot2018-08-21at5_25_12PM.thumb.png.5e438bb358df7dd8054c6b697d8d6c2a.png

 

61045291_ScreenShot2018-08-21at5_25_19PM.thumb.png.0e9d49ee7e141e9048dd360200328880.png

 

InvisibleGeometry.vwx

 

 

 

Edit: As I play around more it seems to be that any flipped symbol inside of another symbol is buggy (regardless of whether it's hybrid or not).

Edited by Andy Broomell
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On 8/21/2018 at 8:27 PM, Andy Broomell said:

Another factor that contributes to misbehaving nested objects... If one of the nested objects is flipped.

 

However, if a flipped hybrid symbol is nested inside another symbol, when you edit the 3D component you end up with invisible geometry, or geometry that is displays off to the side compared to where it actually exists.

 

Yep, I hadn't picked up on that, but I can replicate it in my file.  Further, in both my file and your file, if you flip the host symbol and then edit the 3D component of the flipped nested symbol, all seems to behave as expected (just the same as my flipped symbol resolves the issue of the invisible geometry of hybrid objects when editing the 2D component of the host symbol...).  

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On 8/21/2018 at 8:27 PM, Andy Broomell said:

Normally if you edit a flipped symbol, the view flips to match the way it was created and you can't see objects outside of the container (which sucks but that's beside the point).

 

A flipped symbol still has a relationship to the rest of the 3D model - even if the model has to be upside down and rotated 135º - so why can't objects outside of the container be visible?  I wish they could be.

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On 8/21/2018 at 8:27 PM, Andy Broomell said:

Another factor that contributes to misbehaving nested objects... If one of the nested objects is flipped.

 

However, if a flipped hybrid symbol is nested inside another symbol, when you edit the 3D component you end up with invisible geometry, or geometry that is displays off to the side compared to where it actually exists.

 

It looks like turning Unified View OFF resolves this as well (as well as invisible 3D loci and invisible hybrid objects in symbols).

 

For today's super productive activity with Vectorworks, I'm editing a default door hardware handle (because for whatever reason, much of the default hardware doesn't seem to use "by class" for its attributes...).  When working in the symbol and rendering in OpenGL, everything disappears.  Oh, wait, if I zoom way out, it's there, visible way off to the side (but only selectable at the origin).  (It looks like how far away this mirage image is is a function of how far the symbol is from the file's page center...).  Further, while scroll zooming, and only while scroll zooming, its mirage self disappears, and it's temporarily visible at the origin.  All just like your flipped symbol, only the symbol isn't flipped.  And in this case, turning Unified View ON seems to resolve the issue...

 

It's getting really hard to keep track of whether or not Unified View should be ON or OFF to make Vectorworks a graphically viable software... PLEASE FIX!!!

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