BJRobinson Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 I have been asked to do my first 3D design. As I am new to this. What time factor would you say is associated with 3D design. I.E. is it 2x longer to do a 3D to a 2D design? I know it is like, how much is a piece of string question. But you lovely experienced designers would have some kind of gut feeling for this. Just like after 35+ years of landscaping, I can walk onto a site, ask what the client wanted and can guesstimate a price within 20%. That's all I'm after. Thanks. Quote Link to comment
David S Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Hi. That's a tricky one. Basically in 3d you have to put up a lot more hard work up front. Maybe 3 x as long. However, when it comes to knocking up visuals, or changing designs because all the hard work is done, it's lightening quick and vastly less arduous, maybe 75% quicker? I'm talking about house design here not landscaping btw. So the more you need to apply design changes the more you will benefit from 3d. I think the other thing to mention is (which is priceless) that it's also about accuracy. If the 3d is correct and the changes in 3d are also correct, you are not spending ages over & over again producing drawing sets that you have to constantly eyeball for corrections/mistakes. Hope that helps! D Quote Link to comment
Jim Smith Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 3 hours ago, David S said: " Basically in 3d you have to put up a lot more hard work up front. Maybe 3 x as long. However, when it comes to knocking up visuals, or changing designs because all the hard work is done, it's lightening quick and vastly less arduous, maybe 75% quicker? ..." Dave is rich on here, & perhaps a little light on the upside being only 75% quicker. I was asked to assist a colleague as 95% of his drawing was not just 2D but lines, & moving the stairs in the home reno basically meant I had to redo the entire project, with the exception of the Elevations that he messed around with. So that gets near to being 100% more efficient. On a project of mine that's what I'd call BIM-ish for a Garden Centre we were able to solve several Structure /MEP conflicts that in a 2D project would have taken endless meetings & billable hours by the consultants to solve. 1 Quote Link to comment
David S Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) Did I say 75% @Jim Smith ? I was being modest! One point I did not really hone in on is "horses for courses" During different design stages your mind is focussed on different things. In house design eg Is the mapping out correct (survey) Are the windows in proportion (design) Should I pitch the roof higher. Which one of @Dave Donley 's ace textures should I apply? In 3d assuming your modeling is correct you can focus on revisions of these very important things. In 2d you would still be worrying if the line dwg sections, plans & elevations match, as well as Really important things like drawing revision numbers (argh!) I produced the attached for DSS (Now VW UK) to show the 3D modelling benefits if you are interested.... Edited April 17, 2018 by David S 2 Quote Link to comment
Jim Smith Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Very nice work Dave! This speaks to the heart of Bernard's question I think as change is inherent in all types of design and IMHO using VW in 3D as you point out allows the Designer to focus on what's important at various phases of the process. 1 Quote Link to comment
BJRobinson Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share Posted April 17, 2018 Thanks Guys. I guess I just 'suck it and see' how many more Hrs to allow for. Because I, and all of my competition, quote my designs, I have to estimate how long. This is still hard for me even in 2D, as I am still learning how to drive the software. 1 Quote Link to comment
AlanW Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) @BJRobinsonMy Thoughts are if i am not doing all the interiors in 3d but a plan and elevations without the interference of a designer changing things near the end 3d is much quicker than 2d. I don't have to waste time doing the elevations because my plan generated them automatically. In VW when you draw a wall you are drawing in 3D anyway, put your windows and doors in correctly the first time with size and height and elevations are correct. Amazing time savings when the designer comes back and moves a wall changes a few windows and says i need it for a presentation in 10 min. You move the walls and windows and the elevations update. try that manually. So 3D saves huge amounts of time in the long term if you maintain the process. These may assist; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFVsO16nAZ0&t=32s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDtMSW7H4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pjRwVhjGMA&t=43s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo3erdwpF40&t=170s Edited April 17, 2018 by Alan Woodwell Quote Link to comment
Jim Smith Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, BJRobinson said: ..I guess I just 'suck it and see' how many more Hrs to allow for.... We have a small projects client that we have to do this for as all of this Pharmacy "Banner" are owner operated & very cost focused (AKA Cheep!). We always offer a range based on our estimated hours. Our rule of of thumb is add 15% to the an estimate, and about 70% are right in the middle of the range, the other 30%, we (me) end up having to eat hours. Not the best arrangement, but if we didn't live within a range we wouldn't get the "good" half. We obviously have allowances for overages for CO's & other contract admin stuff. My wife is always telling me to estimate the hours required & add 50%, & this might be more accurate for the 30%; but then would we get the 70%? The issue is always attempting to identify who the 30% are. Not sure that helps or not. Quote Link to comment
Pat Stanford Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 In only semi-serious, one of my early mentors taught me that the way to estimate the time a project will take is to double your original thought and use the next highest unit of measure: 2 minutes -> 4 hours 4 hours -> 8 days 8 days -> 16 weeks 16 weeks -> 32 months 32 months -> 64 years 64 years -> 128 centuries ;-) 1 1 Quote Link to comment
BJRobinson Posted April 19, 2018 Author Share Posted April 19, 2018 28 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said: In only semi-serious, one of my early mentors taught me that the way to estimate the time a project will take is to double your original thought and use the next highest unit of measure: 2 minutes -> 4 hours 4 hours -> 8 days 8 days -> 16 weeks 16 weeks -> 32 months 32 months -> 64 years 64 years -> 128 centuries ;-) My hair is turning grey as I read this!! Quote Link to comment
Art V Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 On 4/17/2018 at 6:05 AM, BJRobinson said: I have been asked to do my first 3D design. As I am new to this. What time factor would you say is associated with 3D design. How much 3D drafting experience do you have? If you have quite a bit of 3D drafting experience in other programs then it is only a matter to learn the VW specifics. If not then the way of drawing things needs to be learned first, though the VW tools may help quite a bit depending on what you need to draw but. If this is going to be your first 3D drawing project at all then all bets on time needed are off regarding the suggestions/estimates mentioned above (which are good ones btw). Quote Link to comment
BJRobinson Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Art V said: How much 3D drafting experience do you have? If you have quite a bit of 3D drafting experience in other programs then it is only a matter to learn the VW specifics. If not then the way of drawing things needs to be learned first, though the VW tools may help quite a bit depending on what you need to draw but. If this is going to be your first 3D drawing project at all then all bets on time needed are off regarding the suggestions/estimates mentioned above (which are good ones btw). Thanks Art. Yes first time doing any 3D drawing. I know all bets are off. I am just wondering how much extra to charge. I can't charge for 100hrs it might take me now when it should only me 20. Quote Link to comment
Jim Smith Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 17 hours ago, BJRobinson said: I can't charge for 100hrs it might take me now when it should only me 20. This is correct, but you need to also think about it as an investment. Firms often pay for trainers to help staff improve their skills. Think of Johnathan Pickup's training, he has great resources (I've several of his books) and they cost time and money; but they pay for themselves in improved productivity. For example I've looked at the issue this way with new tools. The first two projects I used the camera match tool on I knew that I couldn't charge all my hours to learn the techniques. However I thought of the projects this way: "Someone just paid me to learn a new skill!" So on both projects I only charged about 1/3 of the hours spent on the first one & with some experience about 2/3's of my time on the second. I did the additional work/learning on my own time. Quote Link to comment
David S Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I agree with @Jim Smith. Sometimes you just have to invest time. Our 3d surveys take 4 days to complete (compared to maybe 2 in 2D) and we cannot charge the client for the difference, but once the "3D hard work is done" it takes much less time to complete work for planning and working drawings - like 75% less time. So worth it. And so much more of a pleasurable experience. Quote Link to comment
BJRobinson Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Oh, I'm investing the time. Don't worry about that. So what I am assuming from the responses, you all charge basically the same for 2D & 3D design work? Because they both take similar time to do for the same project? I don't have the privilege of doing work on an Hourly basis. I have to quote for mine. Hence the question. Quote Link to comment
Art V Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 10 hours ago, David S said: I agree with @Jim Smith. Sometimes you just have to invest time. Our 3d surveys take 4 days to complete (compared to maybe 2 in 2D) and we cannot charge the client for the difference, but once the "3D hard work is done" it takes much less time to complete work for planning and working drawings - like 75% less time. So worth it. And so much more of a pleasurable experience. Wouldn't this be an argument to just charge the 4 days and explain that what it costs more in the beginning is saved/recovered at a later stage so the costs are roughly the same (or maybe even less in the longer run as things become more efficient when you work in 3D.) 1 Quote Link to comment
Art V Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 1 hour ago, BJRobinson said: Oh, I'm investing the time. Don't worry about that. So what I am assuming from the responses, you all charge basically the same for 2D & 3D design work? Because they both take similar time to do for the same project? I don't have the privilege of doing work on an Hourly basis. I have to quote for mine. Hence the question. It really depends on the project and how many and what kind of changes and how many are to be expected (also client dependent as some are more likely to tinker and keep adjusting than others. If it is an existing client you can estimate how likely this is to happen or not). The issue you may be facing (or not) is whether this is a one time time for a one time client, or a possible repeat job with this client. If you aim too low it may be harder to charge the actual time later once you have more experience. So I'd explain it to them and propose a margin, i.e. a minimum of your 2D estimate and a maximum for the job (e.g. 20% extra) to cover actual time spent on the job, any time spent more on this is your "loss" (aka investment in time), actual time spent between the minimum and maximum is what you charge and time spent less than your minimum is extra profit for you. That way you have less risk of charging too little and "protect" your client from paying too much for extra time because of your relative inexperience in 3D. You know your client, so I guess you have some idea of what may or may not work. Quote Link to comment
BJRobinson Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Thanks Art. You have given me an idea. I might consider charging a price which includes 1 change to the plan initial concept. Then charge additional fee for any subsequent changes. Fee to be determined by the size of the project. Quote Link to comment
David S Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Art V said: Wouldn't this be an argument to just charge the 4 days and explain that what it costs more in the beginning is saved/recovered at a later stage so the costs are roughly the same (or maybe even less in the longer run as things become more efficient when you work in 3D.) Thats an interesting one. We have learned over the years that clients value more what they (or someone else) cannot achieve. As our core competence is design we have deliberately weighted the costs towards planning & design ( as opposed to survey or working drawings) Too often in the past clients have given our planning drawings to builders and not commissioned us to complete the working drawings so we have lost out on fees. Equally, it's hard to justify 4 days for completing a survey as you are just showing clients the building they live in and they don't "value it" Having invested up front on time most of the time we are now able to kick out design stage drawings AND adjust them accurately at lightening speed. In addition the working drawings in 3d and 2d are so much more manageable, efficient and accurate. Quote Link to comment
EAlexander Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) I try to never charge based on time - some union contracts require it to be set up as a day rate though. With time - someone is always losing. If I'm really slow...that might not fair to the client. If I'm really fast, that might not be fair to me. I try to assess the value of what I am providing - keeping an internal estimate of time in mind. Project complexity and provided details drive a lot of this as well. That said - I agree with Pat somewhat. If forced to think about time, I estimate what I think and then double it. e. Edited April 26, 2018 by EAlexander Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee PVA - Admin Posted April 26, 2018 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted April 26, 2018 43 minutes ago, EAlexander said: That said - I agree with Pat somewhat. If forced to think about time, I estimate what I think and then double it. On 4/19/2018 at 1:13 AM, Pat Stanford said: In only semi-serious, one of my early mentors taught me that the way to estimate the time a project will take is to double your original thought and use the next highest unit of measure: Men after my own heart. 1 Quote Link to comment
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