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To full scale or not to full scale?


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First I want to say I draw in 2D for carpenters elevations.  when I draw I draw in full scale. 

 

I was told I should draw in the scale I will plate to the majority of time 1/2" scale usually.

 

I draw in full scale because I find that most cad and sketch up models will import and export well in full scale without the worry of the programs not interpreting them wrong.  The advantage I here is that hatches will show up as they will be plated in scale. but they will be different in full scale details.

 

I am wondering what people usually draw at and the pros and cons.

 

Thanks

Martin

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Just to confirm in case there's any misinterpretation, always always always create the objects in real-world dimensions, i.e. if the object is 12" wide in real life, you draw it 12" wide, and the OIP says it's 12" wide. This is always true regardless of Design Layer scale (which is the scale parameter you see when you right click a Design Layer in the Nav Palette).

 

Design Layer scale is more like a "preview" scale that adjusts the visible depiction of certain attributes such as hatches, linetypes, etc. when working on that Design Layer. The objects themselves are all still drawn and measure at the real-world dimensions. If most of your printed plates are 1/2" = 1'-0" scale, you do indeed want to set your Design Layer scale to 1/2" = 1'-0" so that you get the closest representation of what it will look like later on the Sheet Layer. When the scales match, what you see on the Design Layer is what you see in the Sheet Layer Viewport.

 

If your Design Layer scale is 1/2" = 1'-0" and you instead create a viewport at 1/4" = 1'-0", a hatch fill (for example) will seem like it's twice as big compared to the object it's filling, despite the fact that the hatch is actually still the same size on the printed page and only the object itself has gotten smaller. To make it proportionately match what it looked like at 1/2" scale, click on the viewport's Advanced Properties and set the hatch scale to 0.5. If you're only moving up or down a scale or two, this approach works fine.

 

When it comes to full-scale details, 1:1 scale is quite different than 1:24, so one method is to have a separate Design Layer set to full scale, so that as you draw those details you see exactly what the lineweights, fills, etc. will look like in a 1:1 sheet layer viewport later. It'd be difficult to choose the correct visual attributes for full-scale details when working on a Design Layer set to 1/2" = 1'-0".

 

This all derives from the fact that lineweights, hatches, text sizes, etc. are all sheet-based attributes, while the objects themselves are world-based. Utilizing Design Layer scales helps ease this disparity.

 

Note that you can easily change Design Layer scales even after objects are drawn, and for the most part this shouldn't cause issues. It'll simply change how attributes appear when viewing those Design Layers.

 

Also note that when you have Design Layers of varying scales, you might not be able to view them simultaneously, depending on whether Unified View is on and what settings you have under View<Unified View Options.

 

I hope this helps :)

  • Like 2
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Andy's take is correct & how we work on our projects; but like everything in VW there isn't one correct way. 

I used to do some work for a Water Feature manufacturer who's shop was a stainless steel fabrication shop. All the VW work I performed for this client was drawn at 1:1 scale. There were three reasons:

 

1) The firm imported and used a lot of imported DWG files from base building architects who almost exclusively used ACAD. Working in 1:1 just made the import/export process that much more seamless

2) Many parts of a final design were exported to a CNC machine through an nesting programme & 1:1 scale allowed us to skip a couple of steps on the export to machines

3) The shop often used paper templates to either hand plasma cut shapes too big for the CNC or as in most projects, to ensure the final product would fit in the space as called for

 

All of the above could have been achieved with the more conventional (for VW) method, but 1:1 drawing in that client's case eliminated steps and errors. 

  • Like 1
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Yes I understand how drafting works RE scale vs plate I always create objects in real world dimensions.  My question is should design layer be set to 1:1 (Which helps with import export, or 1/2"=1'-0" which would show hatches better?  

 

My plates can often have more than one scale in View ports so editing the hatch for the drawing for one scale then editing for another won't really work and upset the workflow, unless there is a way to edit a unique hatch for each view port, which would be time consuming and I don't have time for that.

 

I do export a lot for CnC work and find 1:1 is a bit more accurate, One vender asked I export in Ai and I discovered even at 1:1 there was a 1/4" discrepancy.

 

That was my logic, that working in 1:1 in the design layer is better that working in 1/2"=1'-0" in the design layer just to see what the hatch will look like.I figure between gigs I could always print each hatch at 1/2" and do a template so I just know and don't see it.  

 

I work in the Entertainment industry, and the drafting is a bit different than in Architecture or interior design, my background is hand drafting.  The closer my drafting looks like a hand drawing the better.  I attached one example of work which shows the end product.  The etching was exported as 1:1 and cut in vinyl and applied to glass.

 

I hope this help to clarify my question.

 

28685293_1730075467013736_5928328185237554384_n.thumb.jpg.b637fde0def377583f93699da243eb9c.jpg

116_Madison Ave_Plate4 Awning ElevationPRELIMINARY 9-21-17.pdf

Edited by MartinFahrer
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Design Layer Scale is just a proprietary WSIWYG System used by VW.

It is not compatible to anything else and will not be transferred

in any kind of File Exports.

It gets ignored in Exports and Layers come out 1:1 according to the Units

that were used to draw your geometry.

 

So from an exchange perspective DL Scale is totally independent and

you can set whatever you want.


DL Scale just matters inside of VW.

I tried a few times 1:1 but it does not work.

You will all the time run against scaling problems with 2D annotation elements

like all Text, Section End Symbols and such stuff- which will be  - out of scale ;)

and zoom adaption needed when switching between DLs and SLs.

And that will be of course more obvious as more scaled your drawings and plans

will be. So Jewellery Designers won't see as much problems as Architects with

usual 1:50-1:200 scales or even Site Planners with 1:1,000 - 1:100,000 scales.

 

So I also would recommend to use the same DL scale as the scale you use

for the main parts of your SLVPs.

 

 

Edited by zoomer
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5 minutes ago, zoomer said:

DL Scale just matters inside of VW.

I tried a few times 1:1 but it does not work.

You will all the time run against scaling problems with 2D annotation elements

like all Text, Section End Symbols and such stuff- which will be  - out of scale ;)

and zoom adaption needed when switching between DLs and SLs.

And that will be of course more obvious as more scaled your drawings and plans

will be. So Jewellery Designers won't see as much problems as Architects with

usual 1:50-1:200 scales or even Site Planners with 1:1,000 - 1:100,000 scales.

 

So I also would recommend to use the same DL scale as the scale you use

for the main parts of your SLVPs.

 

 

 

Yes that was the other discussion I had with a co worker.  Do annotations in dimensions and font size translate to different scales in view ports?  I usually do all my annotation in the annotation layer in the Viewport.

 

The majority I use 1/4" to 1/2" scale for the majority of my drawing, usually 1" scale on one plate for door and window layout and 3" to full scale for detail drawings.

 

I have grown used to drawing in 1:1 and porting it to desired scales in sheet layers, this way I know my full scale details will look the way I want them to.

 

I guess it really does depend on your work flow and what helps you draw fast and accurate, there is no correct way.

 

 I do like learning about why people choose one way over another and see which will work best for me.  Keep those comments coming!!

 

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Yes, DLVP scale is for WSYWIG.

If your SLVP Details Drawings are your most important Plans and these need to be 1:1,

it is of course ok to set the same DL scale of 1:1 to see these 2D Elements in scale too.

 

As for SLVPs and Annotations,

as far as I know there happens some magic.

Like the Tape Measure Tool in Annotation Space will automatically show the Geometry

parts 1:1 Dimensions - although it will result at a different size on "Paper"

 

I'm not very experienced with all that 2D stuff and SLVP scaling things so I don't

have much clue what works with text Styles and scales in SLVPS.

 

I just know that for my Arch Project Dimensions,

all those 2D things would explode if I do not use a similar about 1:100 scale on my DL's.

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As others have said...for the avoidance of confusion everything is drawn in 1:1 units.

 

I used to set my design layer scales at whatever was the scale they would most generally be ported to. For architectural drawings that would tend to be 1:50.

 

That was so that when editing drawings, I'd get a reasonable approximation of what things like dashed lines, lineweights etc would look like in the sheet layer viewports.

 

Recently I've changed to setting all my design layers to 1:1. This is because I draw more in 3d now, and setting it to anything else causes issues with the 3d navigator device I use. This is a bit of a pain because it makes editing 2d linework less comfortable.

 

I've said esewhere that the design ;ayer scales should be done away with and we should just have a "display at X scale" dropdown somewhere, so we can change it on the fly just like you might change from hidden line to openGL according to what's convenient for what you're doing at the time.

 

Regarding dimensions: I always always put them in viewport annotations because that's what they are - annotations. They aren't part of the basic geometry any more than any other annotation. Putting them on design layers makes no sense to me and creates a big mess when you want to viewport the basic geometry to different veiwports at different scales. I have a feeling that various VW tutorials suggest putting dimensions on the design layer - I don't know why.

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As a rule (made to be broken?) we don't have much text on the DL all text lives on the Anno Layer so text scaling was never a problem. As the water feature company was the only client we worked on with drawings 1:1. The client is also now out of business.

 

We do have two DL's in our template that are always 1:1. The Title layer where our Title Block symbols live (so much for no Text on a DL!) and a DL we call GRAPHICS. We use this layer to import images, & PDF's & as such, it's often used as a scratch layer.  All other layers are generally 1:100.

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Ok I admit I must not be up on my lingo, a little help with what the following are:

 

DLVP - Doh Design Layer View Port

SLVP - double Doh Sheet Layer View Port

DL - Doh! Design Layer (doing taxes here LOL)

 

Line Weight, do you use the 3Dconnexion?  I do like the idea of a drop down "show in scale x"  That way you can see without changing anything. 

 

 

Edited by MartinFahrer
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I know I am late to this thread, but one way to look at Layer Scale in VW is as a kind of preset Zoom factor. With a Layer Scale of 1/4" (1:48), you are basically zoomed in 48 times.

 

I personally much prefer to work in a Layer Scale that is close to the output scale. Line Weights, Hatches, Text all just work (for me) better when using Layer Scale.

 

Does not have to be absolute, but working in 1/4" for the main drawing will allow you to go to 1/8"(1:96) for a site plan and 1" (1:12) or even 3" (1:4) for details much more easily than trying to do everything at 1:1.

 

I especially like being able to use the Fit to Page option. This will basically bring the entire drawing if you are working at a Layer Scale onto the screen. At 1:1 you will probably only get a small portion of the drawing this way. You can use Fit to Objects, but what you get changes as add more stuff around the edges. Fit to Page always take me back to a view that I understand what is where.

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6 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

I know I am late to this thread, but one way to look at Layer Scale in VW is as a kind of preset Zoom factor.

 

It's one of those Vectorworks things where the name makes it more confusing than it needs to be. It's silly to have a "scale" for design layers as it's a fundamental of the design layer / sheet layer concept that if you want to output geometry at a certain scale, on a sheet of paper, you do it on a sheet layer. Calling it something like preset zoom factor would be a more accurate description of what it actually is.

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16 hours ago, line-weight said:

if you want to output geometry at a certain scale, on a sheet of paper, you do it on a sheet layer. Calling it something like preset zoom factor would be a more accurate description of what it actually is.

 

While I'm not sure that I agree 100% with this sentiment, I do understand the frustration as I have trained a number of people who come from the ACad world and this is a bit of a hill for some new to VW users to climb. 

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7 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

 

While I'm not sure that I agree 100% with this sentiment, I do understand the frustration as I have trained a number of people who come from the ACad world and this is a bit of a hill for some new to VW users to climb. 

It's a long time since I've used Acad but doesn't it have model space / paper space which is pretty much the same concept?

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
6 hours ago, line-weight said:

It's a long time since I've used Acad but doesn't it have model space / paper space which is pretty much the same concept?

 

Yes, AutoCAD’s model space is effectively Vectorworks’ Design Layer and AutoCAD’s paper space is effectively Vectorworks’ Sheet Layer. Having trained many previous AutoCAD users, once this is explained they seem to have their concerns eased. The only significant difference is then explaining that in Vectorworks you basically “push” Design Layer content to a Sheet Layer using a Viewport, whereas in AutoCAD they had been used to “pulling” model space content into paper space.

 

@MartinFahrer Regarding your original question, I tend to set my Design Layers’ scale roughly close to the scale(s) at which I will be printing. For my projects (commercial, residential, etc) this is usually 1:50 or 1:100, or their Imperial counterparts.

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Ex Autocad users also have to be told that Vw has multiple model spaces rather than a single model space like Autocad and that it is this capability which allows you to model or draw the floors of a building on top of each thereby virtual modelling the building as it will be when it is built.

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4 hours ago, NeilB said:

The only significant difference is then explaining that in Vectorworks you basically “push” Design Layer content to a Sheet Layer using a Viewport, whereas in AutoCAD they had been used to “pulling” model space content into paper space.

 

How do the pushing and pulling differ?

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4 hours ago, mike m oz said:

Ex Autocad users also have to be told that Vw has multiple model spaces rather than a single model space like Autocad and that it is this capability which allows you to model or draw the floors of a building on top of each thereby virtual modelling the building as it will be when it is built.

 

OK this would be what I refer to as "Design Layer" correct?

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I also think he's talking about VW Layers

 

But from my 3D point of view I see still only 1 Model Space.

I see VW Layers just as a (very important) visibility and convenient thing.

 

In ACAD you could do the same (much more tedious) by duplicating the

Layers (VW Classes) and switching between these by Layer States

+ adjusting current drawing level height .

 

Not like e.g. Microstation, where you really can have several independent

Model(s) "Spaces" in in a file and do all kinds of referencing them into each

other and such things.

 

While there can be totally different approaches and workflows to workaround

the missing VW Layers in other Apps as an equal replacement though.

But I prefer the VW Layer approach too.

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