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Andrew Davies

A “by current class” choice in symbols

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I suspect given the how "materials" were described as taking the load of classes that the engineers aren't inclined to go for a feature like this that would take the load off classes by making them work better. 

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I would view Materials as a separate, unrelated thing from this thread's original wish. (Not sure how it's even applicable, frankly).

 

The desire for the ability to have attributes "BySymbol" is still greatly desired.

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4 hours ago, Andy Broomell said:

The desire for the ability to have attributes "BySymbol" is still greatly desired.

It’s the killer feature that almost everyone migrating from AutoCad misses. 
 

 

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18 hours ago, jason schneider said:

Interesting thought - How would we accomplish what we're asking by using materials? Specifically, 2D symbols.

 

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting using Materials just that the way the engineers have talked about materials reducing the load on classes it would seem like this suggestion wouldn't fit with current thinking. I hope I'm wrong.

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On 3/4/2018 at 11:16 AM, markdd said:

Ha ha. This is the ONLY thing that I miss from AutoCAD. The ability for geometry to be set to change by Class or by Symbol ("byLayer" or "byblock" in Acad). This would be such a terrific improvement. That said, it may play havoc with things like Data Visualisation in Sheet layers.......

 

As a workaround or indeed an alternative way of doing things, you could attach a data record to the flat symbol and let data visualisation in viewports do the work for you. I am sure that will give you the results you are looking for. Layer colours is also another solution but is a bit inflexible as well as meaning that you would need loads of layers where in fact classes seem more appropriate. 

 

If this means that everyone is going to start drawing in 'None' or '0' and then make the symbol class do the work...no thanks!  Have had enough of other people's bad habits, particularly those using AutoCAD and Revit to make me seriously think about changing profession!

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6 hours ago, shorter said:

If this means that everyone is going to start drawing in 'None' or '0' and then make the symbol class do the work...no thanks!  Have had enough of other people's bad habits, particularly those using AutoCAD and Revit to make me seriously think about changing profession!

 

That's not what anyone is saying; that's simply how it works in AutoCAD, via the '0' class.

 

To recap, what we're suggesting in Vectorworks is the option for each particular attribute (Fill, Pen, Opacity, Texture, etc.) to be set to "By Symbol" in the same way that these can currently be set to "By Class." You'd still use whatever classes you want to use.

 

This option would exist only for objects within symbols, and would always be manually set. It would give us the ability to have two instances of the symbol symbol with different colors, for example. The color would be set at the top-level symbol. You could use classes to determine the symbol-level attributes, but you wouldn't have to.

 

In fact, this suggestion is completely independent from classes, materials, and data-vis. Yes these things can all work hand-in-hand, but it's a different thing.

 

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116025646_ScreenShot2020-12-18at9_14_44AM.thumb.png.211ffdac21ca3c9a4c62efd69d021c05.png

 

I just did a model for a convention set in which there were a dozen of these graphic "drums" overhead. They were all the same geometry, but each had a separate graphic (i.e. Renderworks Texture) on the yellow portion. Unfortunately this meant a dozen separate symbols to accomplish this, which was a pain in the butt. With "By Symbol" attributes, I could've just had one symbol, and set the yellow geometry to have its texture "By Symbol." Then for each instance of that symbol I could've set the texture in the Render tab of the OIP and it'd only apply to that single piece of geometry within the Symbol.

 

 

Edited by Andy Broomell
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2 hours ago, Andy Broomell said:

 

That's not what anyone is saying; that's simply how it works in AutoCAD, via the '0' class.

 

To recap, what we're suggesting in Vectorworks is the option for each particular attribute (Fill, Pen, Opacity, Texture, etc.) to be set to "By Symbol" in the same way that these can currently be set to "By Class." You'd still use whatever classes you want to use.

 

This option would exist only for objects within symbols, and would always be manually set. It would give us the ability to have two instances of the symbol symbol with different colors, for example. The color would be set at the top-level symbol. You could use classes to determine the symbol-level attributes, but you wouldn't have to.

 

In fact, this suggestion is completely independent from classes, materials, and data-vis. Yes these things can all work hand-in-hand, but it's a different thing.

 

I know but that’s what happens in AutoCAD. Data is drawn in 0 (and you would be surprised how many users create the class ‘0’ and use it despite it not being a VW class) and block is given layer. Explode symbol and everything ends up in 0.

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8 minutes ago, shorter said:

you would be surprised how many users create the class ‘0’ and use it despite it not being a VW class

 

Yes, this drives me nuts. But also nothing surprises me anymore 😄 

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3 hours ago, Andy Broomell said:

That's not what anyone is saying; that's simply how it works in AutoCAD, via the '0' class.

 

I think there are many situations where this comes in handy.

 

But overall I am much more happy with VW's strict essence of Symbols.

I think it is more easier and beautiful than Autocad's plan less complexity.

 

And ACADs EXPLODE vs XPLODE when exploding a Symbol,

which will either be a one click action but lose all your elements Attributes,

or the workaround command that will annoy you with tons of questions.

 

I personally think,

it is totally ok that inVW, you either use insert as Group option for Symbols,

or just have Duplicates of your Symbols when they differ.

 

In your example, beside counting all graphic Drums, you may also want

a calculation overview of each specific Drum model species.

 

But that is just me looking for simplicity.

I think the overall Autocad user has no problems with complexity and even

sees Command Line as a valid form of user input.

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1 hour ago, zoomer said:

I think the overall Autocad user has no problems with complexity and even

sees Command Line as a valid form of user input.

 

The new Quick Search in VW made me realize how much I sort of miss the Command Line in AutoCAD, something I never thought I'd say. In 2021 I've found that I love hitting F then typing a letter or two to get to the tool or command I want (beyond the many things I have custom shortcuts for). In fact Quick Search has allowed me to turn off all of my tool palettes which has given me more drawing real estate on the left side of my screen.

Okay getting off topic now 😅

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Fair enough.

It is good that you got an option with Quick Search that betters your workflow.

 

To be honest, so far, although I use it in my other CAD, I still neglect VW's new onscreen

palettes near cursor. And still use my pimped Basic Toolbar with all my most used

Tools instead. (Should work on that)

I always used large screens so I am used to a middle main focus drawing area and

peripheral area around for palettes, so I don't really miss that area wasted by palettes.

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On 12/18/2020 at 8:46 PM, shorter said:

I know but that’s what happens in AutoCAD. Data is drawn in 0 (and you would be surprised how many users create the class ‘0’ and use it despite it not being a VW class) and block is given layer. Explode symbol and everything ends up in 0.

The issue is not with the layer 0  "feature", it is with the user not using it properly.  No matter how "intelligent/smart/refined" a CAD system can become it will always be defeated by human stupidity if the the user doesn't want to do things properly.

 

I don't think it is "fair" to downplay a request for a feature just because some or a lot of users are using it incorrectly or in ways they shouldn't do, because there are also users who can use it properly.

If I would have to create a symbol for each colour option etc. the number of symbols would explode even though the geometry is the same for each colour variant.

Imagine needing 10 symbols, each with 10 colour variants, it would become 100 symbols to create and manage/maintain.

 

With the original request you would need 10 symbols and 10 classes and when a symbol has to change colour you only would have to set it to the proper class instead of having to replace it with another symbol (out of the 99 other ones). Imagine there will be an 11th colour, then instead of creating just one additional class I would have to create 11 new symbols if the feature wouldn't exist.

 

e.g. GIS stuff is one of those things where this feature would be really useful to have. (i.e. VW Landscape)

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On 4/25/2018 at 7:27 PM, Andy Broomell said:

So I just embarked on a project that has 2000 of a particular type of object. This object comes in 14 different sizes; each size is a different Symbol. Each of those sizes comes in any of 8 different colors. In the rendering we want some of every possible option... The permutations of doing this manually is a bit overwhelming.

 

If I could just have 14 different symbol definitions, and assign the 2000 instances to 8 different classes to control the color, it would save me hours of time.

 

As it stands I'll technically need 112 different symbols (though I'll probably fake it and leave some combinations out of the rendering).

 

Having a "BySymbol" option for attributes would be a HUGE step forward.

Ok so 2 1/2 years late and this would still be a workaround, but what if each of your 14 symbols became lighting devices and the texture that needed changing received its color by object and the particular geometry to which this texture was applied received its color by class and you made that class a “lens” class?  Then all you have to do is assign a color to the “lighting device” and it would change the texture color of each individual item. Don’t forget to set your Spotlight preferences to allow fo this. 

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30 minutes ago, shorter said:

 

Sounds like a job for Data Visualisation

 

Data Visualisation? Is he a Vectorworks superhero?? 😁

Seriously tho I was thinking the same thing.

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Might I also mention that the ability of a symbol to inherit class properties has also to do with scheduling and quality control.

 

There are many cases in which the worksheet criteria is set with the help of a particular class, or a custom selection / script criteria.

 

If the class is wrong, the worksheet or the selection will be wrong.

 

Therefore, to be able to easily see if the symbol resides in the correct class, would be great.

 

Sure, data visualization is possible, but not feasible since a building project easily has over 200 classes.

 

 

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The issue is the symbol name and the assignment of data. Visualising this via workspace is dead easy as is checking which class the symbol is on.

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The problem though might be that data visualisation won’t work on symbols in the same way it will on walls and plugins.

 

if not then there’s a wish for Christmas.

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On 12/21/2020 at 11:43 AM, Art V said:

With the original request you would need 10 symbols and 10 classes and when a symbol has to change colour you only would have to set it to the proper class instead of having to replace it with another symbol (out of the 99 other ones). Imagine there will be an 11th colour, then instead of creating just one additional class I would have to create 11 new symbols if the feature wouldn't exist.

 

I think there should be any other way,

but not by destroying VWs beautiful simple Symbol System.

 

Maybe some new special overwriting Container where you put

your single origin Symbol in or assign it on top

Like assigning/replacing a Wall Style or like adding a BIM Tag.

Edited by zoomer

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