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Asking Advice on custom built system

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When it is about RW Rendering it may be Maxon's job ....

(BTW I think that C4D isn't as stable anymore as it was in the past, in recent versions,

especially R19, it feels quite strange to me, although there was at least 1 update so far)

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As a follow up on this post I started, I really like my new computer! I am now able to do more work using Renderworks & have renders much faster. One render I did before this computer took over 45 minutes and with this new computer it took just over 6 minutes. The zoom in & out is fluid & very responsive even with a large 2D file open, a floating view pane open, & a large SketchUp file open, and photos open. Not one slow down. I have already used this speed to help quickly render a new set at a location of an office space with lots of stroefront glass walls & we added large steel X-bracing wall to tie in to the existing. I got it to almost photo realistic & everybody loved it, even the Director. They all said how mu better it looked that the SketchUp images. Most SketchUp users I know do not use it's rendering software add on. I really liked being able to quickly change a plant & add a wall & quickly re-render the scene. THe following is one of the images I created in minimal time with this computer & VW-RW 2018

Int Cora's Office #1-email.jpg

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I'm looking to build a new PC for my home office, In the past, I have just used my Surface Pro to do the odd bits and pieces from home. But now due to the commute getting frustrating, I am working from home 3/5 days so the Surface Pro isn't up to par for 3 full days of work.

 

Over in NZ so I'm pretty sure we pay a premium on parts but this is what I'm looking at for $2600NZD (about $1800USD). I'm probably at my budget as I also need to get a 4k screen but just wondering if there would be any trade-offs that you may suggest? Maybe reduce the CPU for better GPU? However, my understanding is that most the day to day work is handled on the CPU so I went with the 4.2GHz.

 

MOBO: Asus Prime H270-PRO

CPU: i7 7770K 4.2GHz (4core/8thread)

Cooling: Corsair H115i 280MM AIO Liquid cooler

Memory: GSKILL 4 series 2/8GB DDR4 2400 (extra 2 slots available on the mobo for future if needed)

Graphics: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1060 G1 6GB

Storage: Samsung 860 Evo 500GB SSD

Power: Corsair 750W 80 Plus Gold

OS: Windows 10 64bit

 

Thanks.

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@Itchy You may want to take a look at the new Ryzen 2700X processor, it has 8 cores/16 threads for roughly the same price as the i7 7700K (at least over here) which would be quite more useful for rendering and its speed should be sufficient as well as it is increased over the Ryzen 1700X version (3.8 or 3.9 GHz now for the 2700X)

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I would also consider buying two HD monitors instead of the 4K monitor. This gives you a better arranged working area at half resolution. It costs much less and will perform a lot better especially on cheaper graphics cards. This is how Vectorworks looks like on two HD screens:

856601526_2-HDScreen.thumb.jpg.555c0fb7978239c31702e3565649c0b0.jpg

 

Edited by herbieherb

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On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:47 PM, herbieherb said:

I would also consider buying two HD monitors instead of the 4K monitor. This gives you a better arranged working area at half resolution. It costs much less and will perform a lot better especially on cheaper graphics cards. This is how Vectorworks looks like on two HD screens:

1

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I have a 28" 4k screen now, and my boss still has a 2k screen. Whenever I have to help him with something on his computer it always seems blurry and fuzzy. I'm not sure I could go back to that resolution. But yes for the price of 1 4k 28" I could get two 28" screens.

 

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:11 PM, Art V said:

@Itchy You may want to take a look at the new Ryzen 2700X processor, it has 8 cores/16 threads for roughly the same price as the i7 7700K (at least over here) which would be quite more useful for rendering and its speed should be sufficient as well as it is increased over the Ryzen 1700X version (3.8 or 3.9 GHz now for the 2700X)

 

 

Thanks, @Art V, yes same price here as well but it comes with a factory cooler so I could potentially use that rather than going for a liquid AIO and save $150. For day to day mundane drawing Vectorworks only uses one core though right, so would the I7 be better for that, and the Ryxen better if I wanted to lots of rendering? I guess you could rely on the boost function which will put it up to the 4.2 under demand.

 

 

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Most of the drawers i know can't go back to one screen if they worked on two. I also wouldn't trade a 28 incher for my two 24 inchers. Most likely you are right and HD resolution appears on a 28 inch screen already some fizzy. The reason why i don't buy any more 28 inchers but only 24 is the better layout of Vectorworks on two screens. And with two hd screens, even a mid-range graphics card can handle it well. What I also find very interesting for CAD are the ultrawide screens. Unfortunately, they are still very expensive at the moment. I hope they get cheaper soon.

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Well I went ahead with and built that system today. I did go with the Ryzen in the end, went with a X470 motherboard and upped the ram to 3600mhz for the same price as what I was going to spend on the intel system.

 

I haven't set up Vectorworks yet, but have run Cinebench R15 and get the following scores for anyone interested;

 

OpenGL - 134 fps

CPU - 1738 cb

CPU Single - 174 (mp ratio 9.98x)

 

In comparison to my Surface Pro of 42 fps and 327 cb I should be able to work a lot faster when at home now :)

 

And as it is a workhorse I named the PC Rocinate, #savetheexpanse :)

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One thing about two monitors especially large ones is then you are moving the mouse a much further distance. I've used one 27" monitor for years with no problems & now am using two 27" monitors & run out of mouse pad space when going far left to right in both of them.

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Just increase your mouse speed. You will quickly get used to it. I got two 24" Monitors. When I move the mouse pointer from far left to right, my mouse moves only about 5cm. It's also healthier for your arm.

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Yes herbieherb, I am aware of this. I have a Logitech G900 gaming mouse that can go up to 12000 DPI, but I keep mine set at 800 DPI for better use in the main monitor & yes I can move the mouse all the way from one side to the other with out picking up the mouse from the mouse pad at this setting. More DPI than this I do not like when working on close objects ion the main monitor.

Thanks though !

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On 5/18/2018 at 9:51 AM, Itchy said:

Well I went ahead with and built that system today. I did go with the Ryzen in the end, went with a X470 motherboard and upped the ram to 3600mhz for the same price as what I was going to spend on the intel system.

 

I haven't set up Vectorworks yet, but have run Cinebench R15 and get the following scores for anyone interested;

 

OpenGL - 134 fps

CPU - 1738 cb

CPU Single - 174 (mp ratio 9.98x)

 

In comparison to my Surface Pro of 42 fps and 327 cb I should be able to work a lot faster when at home now :)

 

And as it is a workhorse I named the PC Rocinate, #savetheexpanse :)

Are you overclocking your system or are you running it at default settings?

 

The parts for a Ryzen 2700X system are coming in over the next few days, but I went for a Gigabyte X470 Aorus Gaming 7 motherboard because of some of the specs compared to the ASRock X470 Taichi and when checking the RAM compatibility list listing at which speed the RAM runs stable and in which configurations I noticed that 3200 MHz or faster memory often tends to run stable at 2133 MHz or even 18xx MHz if all four modules are used because of the way the Ryzen 2700(X) is made. Most modules don't get beyond 2666 or 2933 anyway at the moment. (The slowdown seems to be because of 16GB modules being double rank whereas single rank 8GB modules can run faster on average).

 

So I went for 2666 MHz HyperX Fury with 2 16GB modules that can run at full speed (supposedly) regardless whether you are using 1, 2 or 4 banks. A lot of the faster modules just slow down below that at 2133 MHz to run stable according to the list (i.e being "certified stable" as per motherboard manufacturer's specs) so I didn't see a need to spend approx. 150 USD more on memory for now.  The reason for this is that I prefer a stable system over a faster system.

 

I did get the Fractal Design Define R6 (not R5) as it is designed to be used with water cooling. Though the Ryzen 2700X comes with a cooler that seems to be quite good as well so I might open up the top and put some 140mm fans there as well instead of getting water cooling.

 

@JimW would water cooling still be better than air cooling for a Ryzen 2700X system if there is a good air flow in the case at above average room temps (25-30 degrees C when it gets really warm outside)  or are the benefits not that big in that case? Lots of contradicting info on the web on why water cooling still does or no longer does have a lot of benefit compared to air cooling on modern processors with a good air cooler. I have no intent to overclock other than AMD's automatic boost.

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Art V said:

@JimW would water cooling still be better than air cooling for a Ryzen 2700X system if there is a good air flow in the case at above average room temps (25-30 degrees C when it gets really warm outside)  or are the benefits not that big in that case? Lots of contradicting info on the web on why water cooling still does or no longer does have a lot of benefit compared to air cooling on modern processors with a good air cooler. I have no intent to overclock other than AMD's automatic boost.


You'll likely see lots of conflicting info because the types of folk who like to overclock are often also the folk who like to argue with each other on the internet. 😉 


However: As a personal preference  I always liquid cool my machines now. I don't do any fancy custom water loops with a big ol lighted reservoir, I just use the simple all-in-one coolers like this: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181010&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Liquid+%2F+Water+Cooling-_-N82E16835181010&gclid=CjwKCAjwur7YBRA_EiwASXqIHHSWyyQDLGrUGVU5fXyKMbwsDINHg4GEhS6uA5z9op9c9ALXoffszhoCgrsQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Theyre quiet, and get all the heat out of the case directly, so that the only thing warming up the chassis ambient is the GPU, which I stick to air cooling for. Now, there ARE air coolers that can beat liquid coolers, all liquid cooling setups are not inherently superior to air. You have to compare unit to unit benchmarking temp results really when youre doing your shopping.

For instance, this guy here is no joke: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608041&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-CPU+Cooling-_-N82E16835608041&gclid=CjwKCAjwur7YBRA_EiwASXqIHBj4h1g34EsyHtqC8TsDnM6EzMksArOK17b5kKQmc-g4Jn6m2-iyCRoClv8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

The real question is whether more modern CPUs (be they Ryzen or Intel) run very hot, and these days they are nowhere near as toasty as they used to run even just a few years ago. This of course changes depending on if you're overclocking or not.

I would say there is no empirical "Air vs Liquid" winner flat out, its all about their thermal performance, with a few exceptions:

1) Liquid coolers are almost universally quieter.

2) If you have no or limited airflow in your case, which can happen with small form factor or media PCs, or if you have a whole bunch of disk drives and GPUs stuffed in there, then liquid will likely win out since its able to pipe the heat directly to the exhaust fan, while air cooling has to first raise the ambient temp of the case and then rely on the case fans to push it out.

3) Air coolers, even the best ones, are often WAY cheaper than liquid. 

4) Liquid coolers have a much smaller profile right against the CPU, the better air coolers are BIG and take up a lot of space right above the socket, which can get in the way if you have a crowded case sometimes.

I'm sure there are more, but these are the big ones that come to mind. If you're really worried about it, id buy the cheaper air cooler first, fit it and see if you get thermal throttling under stress testing. If not, have a nice sandwich. If it does, order a nice liquid AIO that had solid reviews, see if it can keep things chilly under the same stress conditions and if it does, just return the air unit. If neither can keep up, then you may be overclocking too hard, or you may need to look into the big guns with dual, triple or quad 120MM fans that look like they belong in a home HVAC unit.

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38 minutes ago, Art V said:

Are you overclocking your system or are you running it at default settings?

 

 

Just running at default to increase the longevity of the parts. The boost function pushes the CPU up to 4.3 when needed which seems to work fine.

I have the stock cooler installed and it seems to be doing fine, no issues so far and no complaints about noise either, although to be honest, the machine is about 8m away from me at the moment, I don't have my home office full set up so monitor is on the dining table and the box over by the tv - will get it sorted shortly...

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7 hours ago, JimW said:

I'm sure there are more, but these are the big ones that come to mind. If you're really worried about it, id buy the cheaper air cooler first, fit it and see if you get thermal throttling under stress testing. If not, have a nice sandwich. If it does, order a nice liquid AIO that had solid reviews, see if it can keep things chilly under the same stress conditions and if it does, just return the air unit. If neither can keep up, then you may be overclocking too hard, or you may need to look into the big guns with dual, triple or quad 120MM fans that look like they belong in a home HVAC unit.

Thanks for all the info, this is useful to know.

 

The Define R6 comes with 3 140mm fans (2 front, 1 back) so I'll try the supplied cooler first. If it seems that isn't providing enough cooling then I'll look into watercooling AIO options with double or triple fans. The GPU is probably going to be producing most of the heat as you mentioned, and possibly the Nvme SSD as well if I install one instead of a regular SSD.

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7 hours ago, Itchy said:

 

Just running at default to increase the longevity of the parts. The boost function pushes the CPU up to 4.3 when needed which seems to work fine.

I have the stock cooler installed and it seems to be doing fine, no issues so far and no complaints about noise either, although to be honest, the machine is about 8m away from me at the moment, I don't have my home office full set up so monitor is on the dining table and the box over by the tv - will get it sorted shortly...

Thanks, I plan on running default with the automatic boost, no manual overclocking for the same reasons as you mentioned. Once I have the system up and running I'll do a Cinebench test to see how it stacks up against my current system.

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Even without OC I would install a water cooling system. Especially when it comes to the longevity of the processor. Lower everyday temperatures mean longer service life. There are very inexpensive all-in-one water coolers which are very easy to install, e.g. the Fractal Design Celsiuses.
When you use the Threadrippers, and you have the choice between two and four ram bars, always take four. Since the Threadripper supports Quad-Channel ram, with only two bars you give away half the bandwidth. 2x16GB or 4x8GB both cost about the same. However, the 8GB bars are available with faster clocking and lower latencies. The Threadripper processors benefit from this to an above-average extent.

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There are so many Pros and Cons for Water vs Air Cooling.

So it is quite complicated, a matter of taste and there is no real winner.

But it is good to know that you still can use even hot examples like

Threadrippers with Air only cooling and that it doesn't necessarily

mean loud.

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